Defending veganism to a vegetarian???

[my3labs]

There's a girl that I work with that is vegetarian. The weird thing is that I've had to defend my veganism to her.
She always brings up the animal testing topic and actually told me today that if we all stopped eating animals then the world would become imbalanced. WTF????????????
And the worst part is that she brings it up in front of other people.
I can't figure it out.:hbang:

[Oracl]

She sounds very confused to me. :confused: Does she mean we would have large numbers of uneaten animals causing this imbalance? Does she not realise that we breed all these animals so that we can eat them? If we all stopped eating animals we would obviously stop breeding them. :rolleyes: :bhead:

[paul]

She sounds very confused to me. :confused:

she sounds like a f@~k wit to me. is she a veggie out of health reason? if not ask her if she eats eggs and did she know that supermarkets wont buy eggs from hens that are older than 18 months old where a natrual life span of a chicken is 10 years (i think). so chickens are being killed so she can eat eggs.

well said oracl mabe she isnt as smart as you.

she might be saying these things in front of other people because she knows you would know the answer and to show other people the truth about animal abuse. or she might just be a complete f*~k wit:biff: :grumble: :rollingpin:

[thevegantwins]

She's probably knows that veganism is the only way of life but has whatever stupid, selfish reasons for not going vegan and is therefore, insecure and needs to attack you to make her choice feel better. Doesn't seem worth it to argue with someone like that, just leave literature on her desk. ;)

[Gliondrach]

How can a vegetarian believe that the world would become unbalanced?

[dreamer]

Her argument does seem strange for a vegetarian. I have a semi-vegetarian friend that I've become reluctant to hang out with because of her stance. Of course, she probably finds my veganism annoying too. But I find it annoying because she claims she's a semi-veg for environmental and animal cruelty reasons. Yet when I have pointed out to her that the environment is harmed by all animal agriculture (including fishing, dairy, etc) and all animals are treated cruelly in animal agriculture (even for eggs, dairy, etc), she just says stuff like, "well, I can't do w/o cheese or ice cream" or "seafood animals don't suffer like cows." Maybe you should print out some info from groups like PCRM to prove to her that animal testing is not necessary and groups like farm sanctuary that show that "livestock" can lead peaceable lives w/o having to give us any "products."

[my3labs]

It's so strange. She was raised in India as a vegetarian. Her husband and her kids are omni's. I don't even thing is about animal cruelty for her..just the way she was raised. She said that she'll eat meat sometimes if she doesn't know that it's meat. HUH???????
I don't know what the hell she meant by the world becoming imbalanced. It's the second time we've had this debate and I just don't want to argue with her about it anymore. she clearly doesn't get it.
I guess it just freaks me out because she claims to be a vegetarian and then argues with me about it in front of omni's. I don't even get that treatment from the omni's I work with.
Next time she brings it up, I'll ask her point blank, why she's a vegetarian and then go from there.

[my3labs]

I'm pretty sure she eats eggs. i know she eats yogurt, milk, butter and cheese...alot.
Sometimes she seems genuinely interested and that's cool, but some of the things she says sound like something that a completely ignorant omni would say.

Four of us went out to lunch yesterday and of course, the topic turned to me being vegan. Then, of course it has to turn to meat and how good it tastes (to them). One of my friends went on about how her 15 year old son ate two huge steaks in one day. It wasn't said to irritate me or in any kind of attacking manner...just conversation. But I wanted to tell her that she was killing her son by letting him eat that way. Hey, let's all load up on the cholesterol at 15 so we can guarantee heart disease by 30. IDIOTS!

[Fauxmage]

It's so strange. She was raised in India as a vegetarian. Her husband and her kids are omni's...
So is she. If you are not a human herbivore, what are you? An omnivore. Vegans are herbivores by default, although they go beyond the herbivorous diet to include a plant-based lifestyle. The word "vegetarian" has become so abused it has become meaningless. If you are not a strict plant eater, you need no other classification, in my view, except that of omnivore, and I confess I have recently become very irritated with seeing things like "vegetarian/vegan" (especially when the word "vegetarian" comes before vegan) and "veg*n". If you eat eggs, dairy, or honey, you are a consumer of animals and a contributor to cruelty as great as that caused by the consumption of flesh itself. You are no closer to a vegan than a meat-eater, and do not deserve to be lumped in with vegans in the above-mentioned ways.

I haven't always been this hard-line about it. Its just something I have been thinking about very recently, after having met a person who claimed to be vegan, but turned out not to be.

"Giving up flesh is not enough. There is no moral distinction that can be drawn between meat on one hand, and dairy, eggs, or other animal foods on the other. Animals used for dairy and eggs are treated horribly and end up in the same slaughterhouse as meat animals.
There is probably more suffering in a glass of milk than in a steak." ~ Gary Francione

[Fauxmage]

Of course, if you were truly ignorant of why using milk, eggs, and honey is wrong, that's a different situation. I was a vegetarian for a while myself, before I found out, from reading Peter Singer, why that wasn't enough. But if you know, (and if you associate in any way with any vegans or AR people you darn well DO know), then you are no better than a person who eats flesh, unless you want to stop, but are having difficulty giving it up for reasons of addiction. But people who call themselves vegetarian, and proceed to either justify their use of milk or eggs, or even worse, disrespect a vegan for being too extreme, might as well just quit the affectations, and be honest about who and what they really are.
Which is omnivorous.

[my3labs]

I agree with you FM.
When I first started working there everyone told me that she was vegetarian. I was pretty excited about having someone to talk to about things and not being the only "weirdo". Then I found out that she eats meat sometimes and I told them that she is NOT a vegetarian. If you say you're a vegetarian, then be a vegetarian. I also can not stand that it's become so convoluted.
Even though I don't believe that being a vegetarian is much better than a flat out omni, I do like to see when people are at least that because it gets the word out. For example, my husband is technically a "Pescetarian". I don't like it and again, I don't think it's much better than an omni, but it's a huge step for him and and maybe for the people that he works with. He brings in vegan food for lunch everyday and it ends up being quite a conversation piece for him. Maybe in some small way in some not too distant future, the people that he deals with will decide to make a change.
Believe me...if I could make everyone vegan overnight, I would. I think it's the only moral way to be, but I know it's not possible.
It's taken me two years to let go of some of the anger. It's still there and most of the time (just happened yesterday), I walk by people at the grocery store and think to myself that they are murderers. It angers me a great deal still and I'm sure it always will. I think when I first became vegan it was such an awakening for me and I thought I could go out and tell everyone and they would all get it like I did, and the world would all become vegan overnight.
In a perfect world I guess...

[thevegantwins]

Regarding your anger, I was talking to my vegan coworker yesterday. She's been vegan and an AR activist for nearly 30 years. I was telling her how I have yet to met a vegan who is not angry. I've met some who have let anger take over their lives, others who are angry when thinking/talking about certain subjects, others who experience a low-grade constant anger at the world and other forms. I was telling her that I think it would be pretty impossible to not be an angry vegan because the nature of true veganism is honesty and knowledge and once someone reaches that status, knows how animals are treated, attempts to rescue animals, hears the shouts at protests, reads the alerts etc., anger becomes a natural response. I don't think it is 'wrong' emotion though how one handles the anger can be harmful to themselves. My coworker is a very angry person and suffers from all sorts of health issues. I tend to think some of them might be caused by her anger but she would not believe me.

I also can't stand the people who find out your vegan and say, "Oh, I'm nearly vegetarian." No, you're not. You're an omnivore. I am not impressed because someone tells me that. However, I'm glad they are consuming less dead animals but that's about the extent of it.

[Fauxmage]

I know some people have to take it in steps, and I've been on the fence regarding total abolition versus gradual reform for ages, but I've been reading a lot of Gary Francione's thoughts on the subject, and it crystallized it for me. I have misgivings even now over stating my views, but I feel very strongly about it. Lots of people stop at different stages, and call it pesco/ovo/lacto, etc., but is this to show progress toward an ultimate vegan goal, or is it to ease the conscience of a person who thinks they are causing less harm than an all out flesh-eater? I think it is important to remind people in transitional stages that it is still just as cruel, but I guess there is a fine line between getting people to go vegan, or making them so discouraged that they give up entirely.

[thevegantwins]

I think alot people end up hanging around the vegetarian/vegan fence for way too long because it's comfortable for them. Vegans should be a bit harsher with vegetarians than omni's because vegetarians are already claiming that they know the truth and are doing something about it. That argument stands for whether they went vegetarian for health, environmental or animal-concern reasons. Every vegetarian I knew/know, including when I was one, avoided taking the next step to veganism out of purely selfish reasons, they didn't want to give up the taste of animal products.

[Enchantress]

Hmm, I think I must be the exception to that rule. I used to be a vegetarian who ate dairy, eggs and honey because I very ignorantly thought the animals who produced these were kept in happy conditions, didn't need the milk we took for their young or the honey they made for themselves and weren't killed when they started producing at a slower rate. Almost soon as I found out the truth I gave these things up. There was a slight delay because I was still living with my parents when I made the decision to become vegan, and there was hardly any vegan food in the house, so I had to talk to them about it first.

[Fauxmage]

The reasons are the most important, and only the individual vegetarian in question knows the real reason why they are not vegan, once they become enlightened about the cruelty involved in the industry, and the unethical nature of exploitation, even if cruelty were not involved.

Its hard for me to remember the exact process I went through once I realized I had to go vegan. I didn't worry about giving up milk, and I wasn't a big egg eater either, as I disliked things like quiches, meringue, or anything really eggy. I did miss cheese, as I liked it a lot, but more than anything, I missed the convenience of eating baked goods. There were so many breads, rolls, pastries, etc. where all I had to worry about finding in the ingredient list proir to going vegan was lard or tallow. But that was still easier than going vegetarian to begin with, as I had already decided not to use any non-food product with animal ingredients or animal testing, so its harder for me to understand why people struggle with going completely vegan from vegetarian, especially when they know more than flesh-eaters, and think it is wrong to eat flesh.

[thevegantwins]

Hmm, I think I must be the exception to that rule. I used to be a vegetarian who ate dairy, eggs and honey because I very ignorantly thought the animals who produced these were kept in happy conditions, didn't need the milk we took for their young or the honey they made for themselves and weren't killed when they started producing at a slower rate. Almost soon as I found out the truth I gave these things up. There was a slight delay because I was still living with my parents when I made the decision to become vegan, and there was hardly any vegan food in the house, so I had to talk to them about it first.
I was the same, once I found out, I couldn't keep eating vegetarian. That's what I meant, you found out and changed. Faux and I changed even though we both loved cheese. There are too many selfish vegetarians who find out but say, "I can't give up my cheese" even though they know that their cheese is directly responsible for the veal industry. Thse are the people who deserve our greatest antipathy. The ignorant are just that.

[my3labs]

Before becoming vegan I was obviously aware of the cruelty involved in meat but didn't have a clue about dairy. When I watched Meat Your Meet, that was all I needed to know. I loved cheese...absolutely LOVED it. I'm over it now.
My husband is only pesco because I forced it on him. He's fully aware of the cruelty involved with ALL animal products and just won't make the switch, and it is a major problem in our marriage. It's difficult to stay with someone that has completely different morals than yourself. Basically, we compromised with pesco because it was either that or divorce. He flat out wouldn't go vegan and I absolutely wouldn't allow him to continue eating the same as he was. I'm not making excuses for him, I hate the fact that he still eats dairy and fish. I hope that one day he will get a clue but I don't think that he will.
I agree with TVT about the anger. I don't know if it's possible to be an AR Vegan (vs health vegan) and not be angry. I feel badly that I've let some of it go because I feel like I'm not as active as I want/should be. I think that the anger fueled my activism.
FM, I don't think you should regret what you said earlier. I think that we're all respectful and understanding of everyone's views and I'm appreciative that we can speak our minds.
I love hearing everyone else's opinions because it helps me to see things from a different or new perspective.

[Oracl]

I know some people have to take it in steps, and I've been on the fence regarding total abolition versus gradual reform for ages, but I've been reading a lot of Gary Francione's thoughts on the subject, and it crystallized it for me.
I've been reading a lot of his thoughts too, in his blog (http://garyfrancione.blogspot.com/), and I recently bought his book Introduction to Animal Rights, Your Child or the Dog? I've also been listening to him speak and answer questions, on some podcasts I downloaded from VeganFreak Radio (http://veganfreakradio.com/). He has helped me to feel less overwhelmed by the cruelty in the world and made me realise just how important being a vegan really is. :)

[Fauxmage]

There are too many selfish vegetarians who find out but say, "I can't give up my cheese" even though they know that their cheese is directly responsible for the veal industry. Thse are the people who deserve our greatest antipathy. The ignorant are just that.
:D
I remember when one such person joined another vegan forum. He made quite an impression on everyone, and no one seemed to object or even notice that in his introduction he stated that he was not interested in going vegan without a good cheese substitute. He was already very popular with the vegans there, due possibly to the overwhelming number of photos he posted of himself almost as soon as he joined, so I didn't make a very good impression on the dominant clique when I asked him why his going vegan was conditional on finding a good vegan cheese (I couldn't help myself, I had to do it! :o ). He was extremely rude in his reply. No one else noticed, or seemed to care. They were all very disappointed when he stopped posting. :rolleyes: :D

[Phoenix]

I was the same, once I found out, I couldn't keep eating vegetarian. That's what I meant, you found out and changed. Faux and I changed even though we both loved cheese. There are too many selfish vegetarians who find out but say, "I can't give up my cheese" even though they know that their cheese is directly responsible for the veal industry. Thse are the people who deserve our greatest antipathy. The ignorant are just that.
I am a reformed cheeseaholic, too. (I really was addicted to the stuff.) At my worst - right before I became a vegan - I used to eat cheese :blecch: three times a day! But I had honestly believed that I was doing the right thing by paying big bucks for the so-called vegetarian cheese. I had a fit when I found out about the link between cheese & veal. :crying: