"Vegan" Outreach?

[dreamer]

I don't know if any of you have visited this site or received emails from them, but I need to vent for a minute. First, they basically say that you shouldn't worry about honey, silk, etc. because that makes vegans look too extremist and scares "converts" away. They also have some stories about how fish, octopi, etc. probably don't feel pain so again we shouldn't talk about not eating them because we don't have "proof" that they suffer "consciousness of pain" (note: they don't say they don't suffer, just that they don't have consciousness of pain) and you could again scare "converts" away by seeming extremist.

Here is a link to an "argument" given and an excerpt below about honey: http://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/fish.html
Insects (including bees) do have brains. But their brains are not highly developed, and they are likely not large enough to facilitate the consciousness of pain.

What do you guys think about this kind of reasoning?

So is honey vegan? Our best answer is "We don't know." If one is concerned about doing harm to insects, it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or alternative sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves some insect deaths.

[Gliondrach]

Well, it's true we can't avoid harming insects in our daily activities but that is not the same as deliberately using them in honey production.

If anyone thinks that fish can't feel pain they are just daft. There is lots of evidence Octopuses have very developed brains. Some people say that they are not very intelligent but they can learn by watching other octupuses. It is obvious that they can feel pain. Pain is a natural part of survival mechanisms.

It is convenient to dismiss the possibility of suffering of those you want to abuse. Similar thinking was prevalent amongst those who kept black slaves.

[dreamer]

I agree that indirect insect deaths are not the same as directly enslaving and killing insects for their products (i.e., honey and silk). I've also read studies that indicate that bees do obviously feel pain and they are in fact very social (not to mention fairly intelligent) insects. Honey is their "baby" food, not just some byproduct of bee behavior. As far as fish go, I recently read a study that indicated that they are much more intelligent than most people give them credit for...they have longer memories than previously assumed and obviously show pain avoidance behaviors. That's why this group in particular annoys me...they claim to be vegan, but have tons of articles talking about what parts of veganism are unimportant and shouldn't be advocated because it turns non-vegans off:grumble:

[thevegantwins]

There are groups and people out there who want to diffuse the definition of vegan. Donald Watson had a specific definition in mind when he coined the word 'vegan' and I doubt he would approve of people redefining it for whatever reason. Veganism isn't about making exceptions for the use of animals, it's about avoiding harm or exploitation as much as possible. Consuming honey or wearing silk is just not necessary.

[Charmagne]

What she said!!:agree:

[Gliondrach]

Perhaps they've been nobbled by the meat/dairy industry.

[Oracl]

There are groups and people out there who want to diffuse the definition of vegan. Donald Watson had a specific definition in mind when he coined the word 'vegan' and I doubt he would approve of people redefining it for whatever reason. Veganism isn't about making exceptions for the use of animals, it's about avoiding harm or exploitation as much as possible. Consuming honey or wearing silk is just not necessary.
Couldn't say it any better than TVT has. :agree:

[dreamer]

I agree, that's why I don't understand their reasoning one bit. They claim that by mentioning that vegans won't eat honey, it makes us look like nuts since so many insects are killed in harvesting other crops and through driving a car. Like you, I see those inadvertent insect deaths as different because unfortunately driving a motor vehicle is a necessity, as is eating plant foods. Honey is not...if an omni doesn't understand that explanation, that's his/her problem:bhead:

[Fauxmage]

...Consuming honey or wearing silk is just not necessary.
To me this is the only truly compelling argument that can be presented to anyone who criticizes veganism. People can punch holes in just about every other argument I can think of, and when I am confronted with statements like "molluscs don't have nervous systems" (remember ChartT Oracl? ;) ), or "insects aren't sentient", I think to myself "Who cares?" The point to me is exactly what you said, vegantwins; it is easy to define exactly what an animal is (yes, fish and insects are not plants!), it is not necessary to use anything that comes from an animal, so give them all the benefit of the doubt and leave them alone! This makes it totally unnecessary to discuss at length whether it is ethical to eat eggs from your very own rescued chickens or to purchase second-hand leather, wool, or silk goods. HUMANS DON'T NEED ANYTHING THAT COMES FROM AN ANIMAL!
What is so extreme about not using stuff you don't need, anyway?

[Oracl]

...when I am confronted with statements like "molluscs don't have nervous systems" (remember ChartT Oracl? ;) )
:agree: :clam: :rolleyes:

[dreamer]

I was looking around for websites on Vegan Nutrition after the Planck op-ed and happened upon the Vegan Outreach nutrition site. I was most annoyed by this page:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/bones

Now it annoys me because it goes along with what I noticed (and was irritated by) in the book Becoming Vegan--not put out by VO. In that book, the authors said it's a myth that milk products have too much animal protein and fat which blocks calcium absorption. Maybe I'm biased, but I trust T. Colin Campbell (a nutrition researcher for decades and Ph.D.) more than the R.D.s who wrote the book or webpage. Even the study the VO discusses (which is discussed elsewhere on this forum if I recall) had questionnable findings because the fractures were not "normal" osteoporosis fracture areas. I'm more and more starting to think that VO is really trying to convince everyone that being as "completely" vegan as possible is not only impossible and irrational, but also unhealthy. Growing more and more annoyed:hbang:

[IndyVegan]

they seem a tad quacky to me. i like organizations like compassion over killing better.

[dreamer]

I totally agree that Vegan Outreach is "quacky." That's why I started this thread, as it upsets me that someone considering veganism might find their site and think it's "true" to the spirit of veganism. Hopefully that doesn't happen much, but I fear it might:no: