An Inconvenient Truth

[VeganD]

An Inconvenient Truth

Has anyone seen this yet it just came out on dvd its about Global warming

www.climatecrisis.net

[paul]

i havent seen it yet.

[Charmagne]

Al Gore does a good job on this. It's very eye-opening. Well worth watching.

[IndyVegan]

it's very good aside from the fact he makes no mention of the arguably #1 contributor to global warming - factory farming! :hbang:

[Oracl]

It's on my list of DVDs to borrow. It's just become available in the video store. :agree:

[Phoenix]

I saw it at the cinema last year. It was well done & hopefully it will wake a few million people up! :rubchin:

[KRITER]

I havnt seen it.But the local Sierra Club Im part of,cuz we fiscaly cleen up lakes,rivers and pik up trash along roads,is fixing to sho it and hand out copys to schools.

[Gliondrach]

I haven't seen it, even though I was consulted during the making in my capacity as a leading expert in such things.

We need more of this type of information to be shown worldwide. It's too late to stop the devastation that will happen but we could lessen the effects for future generations. Nothing much is likely to be done until the problems start to mount up and hordes of displaced people go on the rampage. This will happen when low areas are inundated by the sea and when droughts cause famine for hundreds of millions of people. There is no way to stop that happening. People have been sitting on the fence for too long. Pessimistic? No. Realistic? Yes.

[KRITER]

Environmental problems wont get fixed as long as we keep making babys.

[Gliondrach]

I haven't made any. I'm not allowed to.

[KRITER]

I cant make nun.But theres folks who wont stop.

[Oracl]

Environmental problems wont get fixed as long as we keep making babys.
I think there should be a new world law brought into force that only allows vegans to have babies. :infant: :beanie:

[KRITER]

That wood cut the population down sum surenuff.
Im hearing folks in the county I work in bellyaching about how the property tax (house and land) is going up.Theres major groth going on here.Theres alittl over 800 McMansions going up cross the road from wair I work.A golf course is geting built.It spose to be frendly to the environment.Thats serius bizness B.S.2 stop lites been added to this 2 lane road that runs up into the mountains.The more people,the more groth,the higher taxes will be.Folks who been living here all there lives are fixing to pay higher taxs cuz of the population groth.The deer,bear and other criters been run out of their homes cuz of this dam McMansion subdivision.The hol character and I reckon charm of this reel small town is going away.Sory to sound so down.Im reely tired of how stupid folks is and how money is more important then everything els including cleen air, water and the wild critters.Sumtimes Im redy to go postal.

[Keykeypie]

Awe Kriter.....I'm so sorry to hear that. I know how much you love your
life & surroundings just the way they've always been.....wild & free.

I don't blame you one bit for being upset

[Gliondrach]

I know how you feel, Kriter. I live in the middle of a city but even here there is constant building work. Not far from where I live there is a bit of 'waste' ground that has been like that for decades. It had brambles, long grass, wild roses and other flowers growing there. It is next to the railway and probably belongs to the railway. It has now been flattened and will probably soon have yuppie flats built on it. It is right next to some other yuppie flats that were built on the site of an older building. There'll now be nowhere for the birds and insects that used to live there.

[Fauxmage]

British to Show Al Gore Movie in Schools


From Associated Press
February 02, 2007 11:25 AM EST
LONDON - Former U.S. Vice President Al Gore's global warming documentary will be sent to every secondary school in England as part of a campaign to tackle climate change, the government said Friday.
Environment Secretary David Miliband and Education Secretary Alan Johnson announced plans to distribute Gore's film, "An Inconvenient Truth," on the day the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report was published in Paris. The report by leading scientists, said global warming has started and is "very likely" caused by humans.
"The debate over the science of climate change is well and truly over, as demonstrated by the publication of today's report by the IPCC," Miliband said. "Our energies should now be channeled into how we respond in an innovative and positive way in moving to a low-carbon future."
In the film, Gore warns that unless action is taken to reduce carbon emissions soon, global warming will have disastrous implications for the environment.
"Children are the key to changing society's long-term attitudes to the environment," Johnson said. "Not only are they passionate about saving the planet, but children also have a big influence over their own families' lifestyles and behavior."
The DVD will go to 3,385 secondary schools in England as part of a year-long environmental education campaign.


:yea: :yea: :yea:

[Gliondrach]

Let's hope the little devils learn something useful.

[Charmagne]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?section=/world

When the list comes up click on "China's Dirty Black Gold". According to this video even if we change to help the environment if China doesn't it won't help.

[Gliondrach]

Yes, we and our industrial revolution have a lot to answer for. Every country wants to have their own version. And they all want to eat the typical western diet of meat.

[Oracl]

Sumtimes Im redy to go postal.
KRITER, you have many friends here who know exactly how you feel. :friends: :hug:

[Oracl]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?section=/world

When the list comes up click on "China's Dirty Black Gold". According to this video even if we change to help the environment if China doesn't it won't help.
Thanks, Charmagne. Frightening isn't it? :(

[Oracl]

British to Show Al Gore Movie in Schools
:yea: :yea: :yea:
Excellent idea! :agree:

[Phoenix]

I think there should be a new world law brought into force that only allows vegans to have babies. :infant: :beanie:
:lightbulb: :thumbsup: :yea:

[Bowwowmeow]

Gore's Global Warming Doc Wins Oscar


By GARY GENTILE (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
February 26, 2007 12:01 AM EST
LOS ANGELES - "An Inconvenient Truth," the documentary that turned former vice president Al Gore's power-point presentation on global warming into an engaging and entertaining film, won the Oscar Sunday night.
The best-documentary win was a triumph for Gore, who has kept a sense of humor about his loss in the 2000 election that was decided in George W. Bush's favor by a U.S. Supreme Court decision.
"I am Al Gore. I used to be the next president of the United States of America," Gore says in the film, repeating a line he has used often.
Sunday, Gore used the Oscar win not to further his political career but to boost his campaign to find solutions for global warming and other environmental problems.
"My fellow Americans," Gore said to laughter from the crowd. "People all over the world, we need to solve the climate crisis. It's not a political issue, it's a moral issue. We have everything we need to get started with the possible will to act. That's a renewable resource. Let's renew it."
Earlier in the evening, Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio took the stage to unveil a series of efforts the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences took to make this year's awards more environmentally friendly.
Pressed by DiCaprio about any other major announcement he might like to make, the former vice president pulled out a statement.
"My fellow Americans, I'm going to take this opportunity right here and now, to formally announce my intentions to ..." Gore said before the orchestra broke in and he walked off, arm-in-arm and laughing, with DiCaprio.
Backstage, Gore put speculation to rest, saying "I do not have plans to become a candidate for office again."
Instead, Gore said he was dedicating all his efforts to pressuring governments to act on climate-crisis issues.
"It is the overriding world challenge of our time," Gore said. "I really hope the decision by the academy to honor the work by director Davis Guggenheim and these producers will convince people who did not go see it before to see the movie and learn about the climate crisis and become a part of the solution."


:star::star::star::star::star:

[Oracl]

I just this minute heard about this on the radio! :agree: Excellent! :thumbsup:

[Charmagne]

I was so excited he won - and Melissa Etheridge as well - who won for best song on his documentary!

[Fauxmage]

Late last year the UN released a report about the contribution of livestock to global warming. Whereas Al Gore's film, An Inconvenient Truth, didn't even acknowledge the impact of livestock, most press that does acknowledge it doesn't dare suggest that changing our eating habits would be a good way to affect global warning. The coverage in the March 2007 issue of the Atlantic Monthly magazine is fairy typical. The article reports:

"The Bovine Menace

"Forget SUVs and tractor-trailers—the world’s livestock play a larger role in global warming than all of our planes, trains, and automobiles combined, according to a report from the Livestock, Environment and Development Initiative (LEAD), an organization that promotes “ecologically sustainable livestock production systems.” Between the deforestation that’s necessary to create grazing lands, the fossil fuels required to manufacture fertilizer for the crops that feed the world’s growing livestock population, and the gases released by animal manure (and yes, animal flatulence as well), livestock are responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse-gas emissions worldwide. The good news: There are ways to reduce these emissions, including more efficient feed production, improved soil conservation, and a better diet for all those gassy cows. Given that the global production of meat and milk is on track to double by 2050, livestock’s current environmental impact would need to be cut
in half just to stay within the present level of damage to the global ecosystem.
—“Livestock’s Long Shadow,” Livestock, Environment and Development Initiative, H. Steinfeld et al."

The article is on line at http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200703/primarysources and the Atlantic Monthly takes letters at http://www.theatlantic.com/letters/edlet.htm
Always be sure not to use any comments or phrases from me or from any other alerts in your letters. Editors are looking for original responses from their readers.

On Thursday night, March 8, host Glenn Beck covered the issue on his show on CNN Headline News for his segment, "The Real Story." You can read his summary of the issue on his website at http://www.glennbeck.com/realstory/03-08-07.shtml

Beck makes it clear that he is not a PETA person, but that he doesn't like hypocrisy so is publicizing this issue. In his opening comments on the issue, reprinted on his website, he says:
"In a letter to Al Gore yesterday, PETA nicely explained to him that the single best way for an individual to fight global warming is to become a vegetarian. In fact, according to the United Nations -- an organization that Al Gore is usually quite fond of citing: raising animals for food generates more greenhouse gases than all the cars and trucks in the world -- combined. That's not from PETA, that's from the U.N.! But it's not just them; university researchers have also determined that switching to a vegan diet has more of an impact on global warming than switching your car from a Camry to a Prius!

"Now, Al, I understand that you can't change your carbon footprint easily -- I mean, you have to travel around in a jet to all those panic speeches you give, but what about your meat footprint? If you honestly -- and that's really the key word here, 'honestly' -- believe that global warming is THE most important issue the world faces, bigger than terrorism or AIDS or hunger, then why haven't you started eating veggie burgers and drinking soy milk?"

On that page you can read further comments, and you can click on a link to read PETA's letter to Gore. You can also view a short video titled "An Inconvenient Meal," which has footage of global warming affected disasters, interspersed with shots of those politicians who champion the cause, chowing down on burgers.

You can also read the transcript of Thursday night's show on which PETA's Matt Prescott was interviewed. There is a glitch with that link -- it points to Wednesday's show. The correct URL is http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/08/gb.01.html

If Glenn Beck gets loads of positive feedback he is more likely to have animal friendly and veg-friendly guests on in the future. Please send a quick note of appreciation. Feedback matters.

Glenn Beck take comments at me@glennbeck.com and says that he reads all of them, though he cannot reply to each.

My thanks to Jackie Raven for letting us know about The Atlantic article and to Jane Velez Mitchell for calling our attention to Glenn Beck's coverage.

Yours and the animals',
Karen Dawn
"If you honestly -- and that's really the key word here, 'honestly' -- believe that global warming is THE most important issue the world faces, bigger than terrorism or AIDS or hunger, then why haven't you started eating veggie burgers and drinking soy milk?"
Good questions for Mr Gore, and everyone else who likes his movie, but isn't vegan. :agree:

[my3labs]

I love Gore's documentary but I was pretty discouraged that he didn't mention the destruction caused by animal production.
I'll have to go back and read the entire article.
Thanks Fauxmage.

[Oracl]

I just recently watched Al Gore's documentary. It is a pity he didn't address the problems associated with the consumption of animals. In fact, his own family's Angus cattle actually featured in the film. :sigh:

I hate to see cattle called 'The Bovine Menace' in that magazine article though. :( Humans and their eating habits are the 'menace'. :mad:

[Gliondrach]

I'm going to write to the Altantic Monthly and I'll send an e-mail to Glen Beck to thank him for his mentioning of veganism.

[paul]

Inconvenient Truth is being shown near mine in a civic hall and its free, its been aranged by the town mayor.

[Gliondrach]

Let's hope they show it on telly.

[Fauxmage]

Gore Urges Fast Action on Global Warming


By JOHN HEILPRIN (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
March 21, 2007 12:10 PM EDT
WASHINGTON - Al Gore, a Democratic favorite for the presidency despite pronouncements that he's not running, spoke out on his signature issue Wednesday, warning of a "true planetary emergency" if Congress fails to act on global warming.
In a return he described as emotional, Gore testified before House panels that it is not too late to deal with climate change "and we have everything we need to get started." By turns folksy and prescriptive, he urged the Democratic-controlled Congress to adopt an immediate freeze on greenhouse gases blamed for global warming.
Gore's return to Congress marked the first time he had been in the Capitol since January 2001 when he was the defeated Democratic nominee still presiding over the Senate in his role as vice president.
The former vice president, who 20 years ago held the first hearings in Congress on global warming, appeared before a joint hearing by two House committees. Later in the day, he was to testify before a Senate committee that included the current Democratic front-runner for the nomination - Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Several public opinion polls show Gore among the top three in the presidential race, although he has said he has no plans to seek the presidency again. In 2000, he won the popular vote but lost to George W. Bush when the Supreme Court ruled for the Republican in the disputed election.
Polls consistently place Gore, the non-candidate, third behind Clinton and Illinois Sen. Barack Obama - ahead of John Edwards and other declared candidates - and indicate that much of his support comes from Democrats who would otherwise back the New York senator.
Gore advised lawmakers to cut carbon dioxide and other warming gases 90 percent by 2050 to avert a crisis. Doing that, he said, will require a ban on any new coal-burning power plants - a major source of industrial carbon dioxide - that lack state-of-the-art controls to capture the gases.
He said he foresees a revolution in small-scale electricity producers for replacing coal, likening the development to what the Internet has done for the exchange of information. He also advocated tougher fuel-economy standards for cars and trucks.
"There is a sense of hope in this country that this United States Congress will rise to the occasion and present meaningful solutions to this crisis," he said. "Our world faces a true planetary emergency. I know the phrase sounds shrill, and I know it's a challenge to the moral imagination."
Gore favors a "cap-and-trade" program for the U.S. economy, not just specific sectors such as electricity or manufacturing, which would set an overall limit on warming emissions but allow industry to meet the target by trading pollution allowances.
"Trust the market, make it work for us," he said.
Gore gained international recognition with his Oscar-winning documentary, "An Inconvenient Truth," as perhaps the leading spokesman on dealing with global warming.
A former congressman and senator from Tennessee, Gore received a friendly reception from Democrats in Congress. As he spoke, his wife, Tipper, sat behind him, listening intently in a show of support for him and laughing occasionally at lighter-hearted exchanges.
"Welcome back, welcome home," said Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee.
But several Republicans sharply questioned Gore's recommendations.
"A lot of those recommendations are more regulations and more taxation," said former House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., though he added that he agrees with Gore that the scientific debate on climate change is over. "I think we can find answers to use the coal energy, to use the natural gas we have."
Gore said the climate issue should not be a partisan or political issue. He said he saw a limited role for nuclear power, which the Bush administration has promoted, because the plants are expensive to build and "only come in one size: extra large."
He rejected the contention by opponents of quick action on global warming that the United States should only impose mandatory controls on greenhouse gases if China, India and other rapidly developing nations agree to do the same.
"The best way and the only way to get China and India on board is for the U.S. to demonstrate real leadership," Gore said. "As the world's largest economy and the greatest superpower, we are uniquely situated to tackle a problem of this magnitude," he said.
Congress has nearly a dozen bills before it that call for reductions in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

Still no mention of greenhouse gasses caused by cattle themselves, or all the pollution produced by trucking associated exclusively with the meat industry.

I kind of wish Gore would run for the Presidential nomination, though. I'd be more likely to nominate him to run than any of the other top candidates.

[dreamer]

I think part of the reason Ted Rall wrote his op-ed about vegetarianism was because PETA apparently chided Gore for being all for the environment yet not being a vegan. I know that's one of the things that annoys me about anyone who calls themselves an "environmentalist" yet still eats meat, dairy, eggs, etc. That bugs me way more than Gore using his fuel-hungry jet or spending lots of $ on electricity (though apparently no more than similarly sized houses once you "correct" for the extra he's paying for "green" power). Like you said, I'd probably vote for him over any of the others running for the Democratic nomination, but I personally doubt he will since he right now has more influence outside the political "game" than he would as President.

Do you think being a true environmentalist MUST include veganism?

[I still don't plan to watch his documentary as I find the facts discussed far too depressing and difficult to do anything about:( So instead I'll just keep being a vegan, saving power/gas/water when I can, and voting for more environmentally friendly candidates, while perpetually arguing with my dad who denies global warming even exists--he believes the Bushies and Rush Limbaugh and the like unfortunately.]

[Fauxmage]

Do you think being a true environmentalist MUST include veganism? Yes. I don't practice "half-measures" in my life, and though I know perfection isn't possible, I believe in doing as much as possible towards the goals I pick. Anyone who really makes an effort to do environmentally sound things like riding their bikes to work ( a real commitment, I think) ought to be vegan too.

[I still don't plan to watch his documentary as I find the facts discussed far too depressing and difficult to do anything about:( So instead I'll just keep being a vegan, saving power/gas/water when I can, and voting for more environmentally friendly candidates, while perpetually arguing with my dad who denies global warming even exists--he believes the Bushies and Rush Limbaugh and the like unfortunately.] Same here. I've never watched any of the well known films like Meat your Meat or the others people mention. Its preaching to the choir in my case, and I can't live with the images I've already been exposed to. It becomes crippling for some to see too much, when they already know it is wrong, and are doing everything they can not to support it. :(

[dreamer]

I haven't watched any of those animal rights videos either...even the descriptions I've read have made a huge sad impression on me. Guess that comes from being a "highly sensitive person"--for better or for worse:confused:

[Charmagne]

I have to say that I have watched some of them. If it hadn't been for Meet your Meat it might never of hit me how horribly our animal friends are treated that are factory farmed. I ran across that video on the web somewhere which led me to PETA - then to ALF - then here. And I am thankful every day that I did see it. I can't watch it anymore - it is just too heartbreaking - I cry every time I hear of another undercover film being made. I love all animals and they suffer so much in the hands of vile so called "human beings". I never did think of how animals for food must be treated but it was an automatic "no more meat" for me. I mean I didn't do it gradually - I did it one day and that was it. I think these videos that PETA makes serve a good purpose and have caused a lot of people to change to vegetarians and vegans but once you have changed - like Fauxmage or someone on here said - there really is no sense in watching them again.

What made you two realize what was happening to the animals tortured to feed people? Just curious - I don't think it is something the average person thinks about.

[dreamer]

I personally had never really liked meat, but I kept myself in denial about the "real" story behind it. I had always taken up for animals--like when a friend thought it funny to stomp on beetles--and loved them as other people, but I wasn't vegetarian largely as I thought I would've starved in my parents' house should I try. Then when I was about 19, it just suddenly exploded on my consciousness. I think maybe I'd seen a Prime Time Network News story on how some animals were treated (I distinctly remember them showing a little black chick somehow making it through a machine that was smashing "bad" eggs and they made it seem the male chick was accidentally on it--which I know better now). This was also when I suddenly realized that I couldn't be the "perfect" child my parents may have wanted, so in many ways I was awakening/individuating, not just about animal rights. Unfortunately, I was still in denial to some extent, as I still justified eating sea creatures as "acceptable"--eating them at least monthly--and did continue eating eggs/dairy. I stopped eating sea creatures when I saw Finding Nemo, which I know sounds strange (since it's just a cartoon), but the scene with all the tuna straining against the net and some gasping for breath, finally shattered my rationalizations about eating any animals. Veganism only came to the fore when my mom had a major heart problem and I read The China Study. From there I started reading about how even dairy and eggs were cruel (such as on Erik Marcus' site and one of his books, Farm Sanctuary site, etc), so I became vegan and still am today. The Erik Marcus book I read recounted a few very upsetting instances, which still haunt me today! But in all that, I have avoided watching the really gruesome videos as I get so upset even by fairly tame examples of animal "cruelty" that I feel it would be too traumatizing. (I still remember Kermit the Frog being tied in knots by Steve Martin on The Muppet Show and I even knew that Kermit wasn't real, but it upset me!) But I know I'm a big baby:whistle:

[Fauxmage]

What made you two realize what was happening to the animals tortured to feed people? Just curious - I don't think it is something the average person thinks about. I was about five years old, I think, when, at the dinner table, we were talking about where the food we ate came from. I had become fascinated with vegetable gardening when I found out that you could actually grow plants with tomatoes on them, instead of having to go to the store (what a shame that modern lifestyles separate children from the land). We were eating hamburgers, so I asked where they came from, and my Mom said "Cows."

I was already a lover of animals, and I had seen plenty of cows on road trips, and I loved them, so when I found out, I was very upset. I tried to refuse to be fed meat right then and there, but I was too young to stand up for myself.

So it was never the suffering that affected me. I knew nothing of it, but it was still wrong to me, to kill an animal and be the cause of his death. We had so many different animals around the house when I grew up, and I was so traumatized every time one died, that I was just very sensitive to the idea that anything had to die. I couldn't possibly allow myself to be the cause of another animal's death, when I hated the fact that they die at all. As soon as I was old enough to cook for myself I went what is now considered vegetarian, and not long after I went vegan when I read Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation". I was never aware of the cruelties involved in egg and milk production either. When I read Singer, it made sense to me simply from the basis of living according to a consistent and logical philosophy, ie if you don't eat their flesh, you really shouldn't eat their eggs or drink their milk. I'd like to think I might have gotten to that point on my own before too long, but I read Singer before that happened.

Now I am sorry to see how Singer has veered away from what I think of as the only correct way to consider the animals with whom we share this Earth, in such an unpredictable and inconsistent way. :( Of course its strictly from an emotional basis that I reject his idea of sacrificing a few for the sake of the many (there's no way I would consider killing Daisy, for example, if her death meant saving ten people), but I do not subscribe to the chauvanistic view that emotional arguments are considered of lesser weight than rational ones. Emotion has always been considered a "feminine" quality, and rationality a "masculine" one, and since everyone knows that men are superior to women in every way ( :rolleyes: ), emotions are considered inferior to logic. I disagree completely.

[Charmagne]

I agree - no way do I consider emotions inferior to logic. Anyone asking me to sacrifice one of my non human companions for any amount of humans would be sadly disappointed and probably shocked. I was never a big meat eater as a youngster - I mean I could of gone forever and not had the steak and potato - give me the vegetables or salad and I was happy. But I did eat the fast food crap :blecch: which almost makes me literally sick to think of now - I wish I had thought about it years before as you did - I could have been making a difference for so many years. I have preached to my family especially my nephew who at 27 has several health problems. Tuesday he had tubes put in his ears for probably the fifteenth time in his life and is taking allergy shots twice weekly for various allergies. I have tried talking him into just giving up eggs and dairy for one month to see if there is a difference but he says he cannot do without his milk. Well, I am sorry but I can't feel sympathy for someone who refuses to try and help themselves. I feel that if people know something they do is causing harm to animals AND themselves and still insists on doing it - then - even if they are family - they deserve what happens. It may sound callous but that's how I feel.

[Fauxmage]

I'm afraid I feel the same way about my family, even though I love them dearly. They are the most confusing types; the ones who love animals more than the average person, but won't stop eating dead ones. Last week my brother was wearing a T-shirt he designed for the shelter he used to work at. It has a picture of one of his favorite dogs at the shelter, a pit bull in a leg cast, and the caption says "Every life matters." He was wearing this while he fed my niece a pureed mixture of chicken and veggies. :( :confused: :bmoon:
Its not that I wish them the consequences of what they do, in the same way I wish them on strangers, but I know they cannot escape the consequences of what they do, both physically and spiritually, and though it will make me sad, I won't be able to deny that they have brought it on themselves.

Your nephew sounds like a textbook case of someone truly addicted to the very substances that make them the most ill. This is more common with dairy-intolerant people than almost anyone else.

[Fauxmage]

How funny! I was just visiting another forum, and found this quote from Benjamin Zephaniah.

" One day when 1 was 11, I asked my mother where did meat come from and she said from the butcher and I said where did the butcher get it from and she said the farmer and I said where did the farmer get it from and she said the cow and I said where did the cow get it from and she said – it is the cow! A shudder went through me! I became vegetarian. When I was 13 I became vegan."

Benjamin Zephaniah

That's almost the same as my own story, except at least my parents didn't give me the run-around his mom tried to give him.

[dreamer]

I agree...the majority of the reason I can't stomach the idea of consuming animal products is because of my spiritual, emotional, and psychological link to them. That is, I feel we are all connected and eating my fellow sentient beings or having a part in their suffering is anathema to me. I too get annoyed with people who argue that such reasons are flawed or less worthy than purely logico-hypothetical (i.e., "hard science") arguments. I believe we have emotions for a reason, often to show us the way when our "minds" get us into unethical territory. (Though I think there are plenty of rational reasons not to eat animal products as well, but the emotional reasons I personally think are more likely to keep a person vegan.)

As far as people being responsible for their actions (i.e., eating dairy despite its consequences), I have mixed feelings. First off, I think we all tend to be irrational at times (as we were just discussing) and can be fairly inflexible when in denial about our behavior. For example, according to most of the literature I've read, I'd be much healthier if I completely cut out cane sugar from my diet--I buy the vegan kind at least. Have I cut out sugar? Heck no...I love my vegan desserts such as soy ice cream, vegan cupcakes, vegan chocolate:yum: Am I likely to cut out those types of food stuffs...not really. Secondly, the animal agriculture industry is "in bed" with lots of organizations (the USDA, etc.) and puts out misinformation such as how much we need dairy or fish and how it's good for you--at least in the low fat varieties. So who are people going to listen to...vegans who are largely self-taught by groups that your average omni thinks are fringe groups/people or the federal gov't and medical community which often tells them that what they're eating is heatlhy? I personally believe that these "mainstream" groups are far too influenced by animal agriculture concerns, but many people still believe what they're being told by these groups. On top of that, my understanding is that dairy can be very addictive and the adults who refuse to give it up may well have become addicted when too young to make their own decisions. (That's not to say they can't do it, just that it makes it even more difficult.) The reason I have mixed feelings is because I do believe that you can overcome all of that societal brainwashing and even addiction, but you first have to snap out of denial to do so and some people would rather not have to think for themselves--especially when they "like" what they're doing.

[Oracl]

The reason I have mixed feelings is because I do believe that you can overcome all of that societal brainwashing and even addiction, but you first have to snap out of denial to do so and some people would rather not have to think for themselves--especially when they "like" what they're doing.
So true! :agree: That pretty much sums up a lot of people I know. :sigh:

[Fauxmage]

Its so much easier to do what everyone else is doing than to think for yourself.

As far as people being responsible for what happens to them, I don't think that they are responsible, or to blame, per se, I just know that everything that happens has its consequences, and no one can escape them, whether they deserve to or not. It comes from my reading of Swedenborg, which made more sense to me than any other religious philosophy. He stated his belief that people create their own "heaven" or "hell" according to how they live their lives. Its not a judgement, so to speak, its more of a construction, that is directly influenced by whatever a person is able to manifest with whatever abilities they develop. Its more of a cause and effect philosophy, that doesn't require a moral interpretation, or a need to think of what happens to people as "rewards" for goodness, or "punishments" for evil.

He also stated that people must do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not in hopes of being rewarded here, or in the afterlife. I've always liked that, too.