How long before awareness?

[Keykeypie]

Hi everyone.....Yes! I really do love this forum.....GREAT VIBES!:colors:

This is a question that's real hard for me to answer, so probably for you guys as well. But here's the thing. At some point in time, because of
how quickly & easily information gets out and is spread & passed around, EVERYBODY will be forced to become aware of exactly what's on their plate, how it got there, how much he or she suffered etc.

You know, all the stuff we already know so well and can't figure out why others still seem to be in the dark about.

I know there will still be a lot of jerks who really don't care....but at least at some point in time, the big eyed innocent excuse "OH I JUST NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT" won't work any better then someone today saying ....."Smoking? It's not healthy? I never knew that."


So what do you all think? Is it close? 5 years? 10 years? longer?
Make sure you look at the PETA2 BOARDS (http://streetteam.peta2.com/public/folder_view.cfm?pageid=341&option=view_topics&actionid=531) before voting!

My guess is 5 years but maybe I'm being over optimistic. And I'm
talking about world wide........not just in North America, Europe, & Australia

[my3labs]

5 years would be awesome but I don't see it happening that soon. I hadn't really thought about the information becoming more widely available due to the internet but that is a really good point.

I think that the meat and dairy industries will spend big bucks to hide it for as long as they can. Those "happy cow" commercials are a good example. Obviously we all know that it's a bunch of crap, but people buy into it. I think that they want to believe it. When they're faced with the truth it puts them at a crossroads and most people don't want to make that decision so they continue to deny what they suspect or know deep in their hearts.

[Keykeypie]

Well, what gives me hope is going & reading the PETA2 boards.....they're all teens and half the time I don't get all they're talking about but one thing is clear....they're all vegans or at least fighting their parents to let them be.

That & the fact I can remember when everybody....doctors....pregnant & nursing mothers all smoked & thought nothing of it.....that's all changed..right?

[my3labs]

Absolutely. I think we're heading in the right direction and I think that the youth of today is the key. My daughter is vegan and knows a few other kids that are at least vegetarian.

I really hope that it happens sooner than later.

[Oracl]

I am cynical and pessimistic, so I voted 'Longer'. :( (I probably should have voted 'Not in this century'.)

[Phoenix]

I am cynical and pessimistic, so I voted 'Longer'. :( (I probably should have voted 'Not in this century'.)
Ditto ... except I did vote "not in this century". :no: :crying: :grumble:

[Rainbow]

Ditto ... except I did vote "not in this century". :no: :crying: :grumble:
Yes Phoenix I think we have a point, we're talking about the majority of H:devil4:U:devil4:M:devil4:A:devil4:N:devil4:S here. :shock: :zip: :sigh: :whiteflag: :rubchin: :zzz:

[dreamer]

I think in Western cultures we may come to the point where we are unable to get easy access to animal products because of depletion in water availability and cessation of gov't subsidizing (i.e., energy, water, and feed subsidies), which will lead to an escalation of prices where only "rich" people can eat animal products...but as far as actually understanding the ethical reasons animal products should be avoided, I'm not sure that'll happen anytime soon. (I put "longer," but as I think about it, I might should've put "not in this century":crying:)

[thevegantwins]

Ditto ... except I did vote "not in this century". :no: :crying: :grumble:
Same here, so many humans just don't give a shit. Selfish to the core. :(

[paul]

i voted for longer, longer than what i dont know , mabe a couple of centries.
mabe 15 years.

[Gliondrach]

I voted for 10 years. Although, when everyone knows about it they might not do anything about it. I knew for years before I became vegetarian. That was many years ago and I genuinely believed that we needed meat to be healthy. I think that we can all do our bit by trying to be as healthy as we can and by learning as much as we can so that we can stand our ground in any argument, and convince the ignorant masses that we do not need any animal products apart from mothers' milk for babies.

[Keykeypie]

I voted for 10 years. Although, when everyone knows about it they might not do anything about it. I knew for years before I became vegetarian. That was many years ago and I genuinely believed that we needed meat to be healthy. I think that we can all do our bit by trying to be as healthy as we can and by learning as much as we can so that we can stand our ground in any argument, and convince the ignorant masses that we do not need any animal products apart from mothers' milk for babies.


RIGHT! 10 years. That sounds very likely because the question wasn't
when will people change......just when will they become aware and let's face
it, once somebody sees something like meet your meat they can't unsee it.

True we can't soften people's hearts but we can all do our part to make
sure people know.

Also.....me personally......I'm really just a very average person. I'm not
educated at all.....never even went to high school. Average IQ.....working class, so if I know what's what.....how far behind me can the rest of the world be?

I mean come on......are "we" all really THAT MUCH ahead of our time?

It really hurt me when I saw people said "not in this century":crying:

[maddie]

Good thread Keykey! I voted longer because I don't want to be a total pessimist and vote not in this century which is really what I think. My husband and I recently watched a documentary that showed the progression from segregation of black and white people in the Southern U.S. to desegregation. We watched in horror at what the activists had to go through, beatings, violence, jailings, ridicule, harassment and a lot of time and energy that could have been spent just enjoying life. It is really wild to think that this was going on such a short time ago. I told my husband that I hope my little 3 year old niece sits with her husband in the near future, as I sat with mine, and watches a documentary on how the animals WERE once treated.

I would love to see a full blown march on Washington. I would love for every ara to come out of the woodwork and march. I just wonder how many people we would have there?? I wonder if there would be any real change as a result? There is such an economic dependency on the exploitation of animals. That is why I think it will take longer than in this century for real change.

Your question was how long will it take for awareness? I think that can be reached much sooner, it's the unbrainwashing people part that will take much longer, people still think they need meat to live!!! Unreal!!! It is very uplifting to see the vegan teenagers growing in number. Still, here's an example of the majority of kids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS2dwMREz8&search=vegan

I can't believe that the kids in the video seem to have never even considered the question before....and at their age! They are plenty old enough to have thought of this question before. I don't mean to bummer this thread out, I'm just sharing. I pray every night for total animal liberation. I also am very grateful to the activists that risk their freedom and even their lives, as the desegregation activists did, to implement the change we want.

[Keykeypie]

Hi Maddie, thanks for your reply........I know you're right about there being such an economic dependency on the exploitation of animals.....that's the big hurdle for sure!

I guess it's partly reading this book (http://www.european-vegetarian.org/lang/en/info/publications/veggieworld.php) that predicts the next 50 years will see the UK 80% vegan,& why, and also maybe because I'm older and have seen just how drastically
things can and have changed that I'm more optimistic.

I mean, I've worked in resturants where a black person couldn't even get a glass of water...BECAUSE IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW.....can you imagine that? And like I said before, I remember when EVERYBODY used to smoke...Doctors....nurses...nursing mothers.....all just puffing away.

Also.....the way things are now are so f**king wrong that I personally refuse to act like it's normal to eat the insides of dead animals.

I'm can't get videos for some reason....yes I've tried to download numerous things....but anyway I know there are still many backward snotty
kids.....if that was what it was about....but I also know there's a whole new wave of vegan kids.....just go look at the PETA2 BOARDS (http://streetteam.peta2.com/public/folder_view.cfm?pageid=341&option=view_topics&actionid=531)
and compare what you read there to what was going on when you were in school......I think you'll see what I mean & I certainly think that we will at least see "awareness" in our lifetime.

What I'm looking [ hoping ] for is for something to happen where things
will just begin to snowball.......I mean it's just gotta happen sooner or later.

Where even people who are as cold & hardhearted as can be will be disgusted at the thought of eating the insides of animal....not because it's
inhumane but just simply because it will be considered something that only
barbaric lower forms of life would even think of doing.

[KRITER]

Thats a hard one to follo Keykey.I beleev in wut you saying.Im from the South and lived in every part of the South.I seen hateful going ons wen I was a youngin,thats a fact.Didnt kno wut they was at the time but later figured out wut I saw people doing to other people wert no holloween party.I seen the KKK doing there thing in front of a littl house that sat on the edg of field of either soy bean,tobacco or cotton.I was riding the car in the front seat next to Daddy.I asked him wut was going on and he said "Dont you pay it no mind,it aint got nothing to do with you".As people we dun come along ways as far how we treet other folks with diferent colored skin.I rember the gron ups saying there wud be another civil war between white and black.But more and more folks of diferent ethnics dun come to be frends.Its took along time but its happning.
Wen I ate meat I was aware of wair meat come from.We got fresh fish,beef and ham from criters raised at Granmas.Iv xperenced a slawter house.
Thawt we was spose to eat criters and that there was the way it is.I learned diferent later.
Iv set displays at watered down enironmental happnings.Shoing pictures of factory farm criters,criters in traps,and pictures of them being electricuted and skined.Iv been involved in silent demenstrations rite after Thanksgiving wen folks is trying to get rid of their money,holding pictures of skined fox.
My hope is more folks will learn about the hell farm animals go thru,the hell wild criters go thru being hunted down,traped and murdered in front of their familys, like we learned about racism.And learn that killing criter is as rong as
the law saids killing people is.It took along time to get rid of slavery and along time to get racism to level it is now but it happned.So my hope is we can do the same with criters.You had to read all this to find out I vote longer.
I hope I made sum sence.

[Keykeypie]

You always make sense Kriter....You & I are from the same kind of place.
My grandfather was in the KKK .....and when he died I never shed a tear.

Ok....so you said "Longer" that could be 40 or 50 years....I'll agree with that.....but secetetly I think not that long.

And it's because of people like you & Maddie & all of us, that I say that. Remember, the question was how long before people become "aware"?

And that's exactly what [I]you're doing......maybe you're not getting a lot of people to change but you're showing them those pictures......and making people realize what the reality really is.

I mean once a picture gets in somebody's head...the more they try NOT
to think about it.....the more it will haunt them......right?

That's why I have so much respect for you...because believe me...I know
exactly the mentality you're up against.....boy do I ever!
I mean I couldn't take it.....I got out....but you stayed and are doing
probably more good then you'll ever realize.....I'm not kidding....I'm really
proud to know you!

As to how long before things change.....well, we'll just have to see....
but if I'm right....I'm going to lord it over everyone who disagreed with me....
tee hee hee........and don't think I won't.....:nahnah:

[Gliondrach]

More and more people are learning the truth but the big vested interests have lots of money and powerful friends. The meat, dairy and vivisection industries try to sweep the evidence under the carpet - just like the tobacco industry did. They have politicians in their pockets and will fight tooth and nail to keep their profits flowing in. The change has to come from the people. When enough people demand change, and demand it loudly, then change will happen. In this country opinion poll after opinion poll for years showed that most people wanted an end to fox hunting. The politicians, especially the House of Lords, ignored them. But eventually the politicians had to give in. It will take time. But millions of non-humans have to suffer to buy that time.

[Phoenix]

... the question wasn't when will people change......just when will they become aware ...

It really hurt me when I saw people said "not in this century":crying:
I'm sorry Keykeypie.

In RL I only know one vegan and she's my housemate! I am surrounded by ignorant omni's and sometimes when I'm here the frustration bubbles over :hbang: and I forget that I'm in the company of people who care ...

I should have thought before I put my hands near the keyboard. :sorry: Sorry.

[Keykeypie]

I'm sorry Keykeypie.

In RL I only know one vegan and she's my housemate! I am surrounded by ignorant omni's and sometimes when I'm here the frustration bubbles over :hbang: and I forget that I'm in the company of people who care ...

I should have thought before I put my hands near the keyboard. :sorry: Sorry.

Oh no no Phoenix, no need to apologize. I didn't mean I took it personally,
and I really wanted to know what people thought.

But the thing is.....if "we" don't believe things will change, then who?

Anyway....when trying to convince people that times REALLY ARE changing
I always say......"Hey....just go read what the teens on the PETA2 boards
are saying.....because this present generation of teens are really sharp.......
they know what's going on....and they seem pretty well determined to change things.

Not only that but here's some more good news I just got from a group (http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php)that
both I & PETA are very supportive of....here, I'll just paste the whole piece here so everyone can read it.

Since our last update, stories on cultured meat appeared in:

The Economist (text below)

VegNews http://www.animalrighter.org/Feature_Article.html

The United Nations' 2006 State of the Future report lists in vitro meat as a solution to global environmental pressures: "If beef or other animal meat can be manufactured from stem cells, land, water, grains and other resources can be saved. People may dislike the idea of producing meat, or a part of an animal, in laboratories or factories. The meat industry may object to the idea fearing that their best quality beef is copied and mass-produced. However, with limited land and water, and ever-increasing demand for animal proteins, stem cell research for mass-production of meat should be given serious thought" (p. 2-18).

Best wishes,

Jason Matheny

New Harvest: Advancing Meat Substitutes
http://www.new-harvest.org/
info@new-harvest.org

http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=7904194

The Economist
September 23, 2006

A meaty question

Biotechnology: Meat grown in vats, rather than in the form of animals, could soon be on the menu. It might even be healthier and better for you

IF YOU have ever longed for a meat substitute that smelt and tasted like the real thing, but did not involve killing an animal, then your order could be ready soon. Researchers believe it will soon be possible to grow cultured meat in quantities large enough to offer the meat industry an alternative source of supply.

Growing muscle cells (the main component of meat) in a nutrient broth is easy. The difficulty is persuading those cells to form something that resembles real meat. Paul Kosnik, the head of engineering at a firm called Tissue Genesis, is hoping to do it by stretching the cells with mechanical anchors. This encourages them to form small bundles surrounded by connective tissue, an arrangement similar to real muscle.

Robert Dennis, a biomedical engineer at the University of North Carolina, believes the secret of growing healthy muscle tissue in a laboratory is to understand how it interacts with its surroundings. In nature, tissues exist as elements in a larger system and they depend on other tissues for their survival. Without appropriate stimuli from their neighbours they degenerate. Dr Dennis and his team have been working on these neighbourly interactions for the past three years and report some success in engineering two of the most important—those between muscles and tendons, and muscles and nerves.

At the Touro College School of Health Sciences in New York, Morris Benjaminson and his team are working on removing living tissue from fish, and then growing it in culture. This approach has the advantage that the tissue has a functioning system of blood vessels to deliver nutrients, so it should be possible to grow tissue cultures more than a millimetre thick—the current limit.

Henk Haagsman, a meat scientist at the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands, is trying to make minced pork from cultured stem cells with the backing of Stegeman, a sausage company. It could be used in sausages, burgers and sauces.

But why would anyone want to eat cultured meat, rather than something freshly slaughtered and just off the bone? One answer, to mix metaphors, is that it would allow vegetarians to have their meatloaf and eat it too. But the sausage-meat project suggests another reason: hygiene. As Ingrid Newkirk of PETA, an animal-rights group, puts it, "no one who considers what's in a meat hot dog could genuinely express any revulsion at eating a clean cloned meat product."

Cultured meat could be grown in sterile conditions, avoiding Salmonella, E. coli, Campylobacter and other nasties. It could also be made healthier by adjusting its composition—introducing heart-friendly omega-3 fatty acids, for example. You could even take a cell from an endangered animal and, without threatening its extinction, make meat from it. Giant-panda steak, anyone?

[Gliondrach]

Good idea to cater for those who want meat. I wouldn't have any - I don't want to taste meat any more. I wonder if it would prolong the day when everyone would become vegetarian, though. That day would probably never arrive. Even if we did all become vegetarians something would happen to 'civilisation' and people would become hunter-gatherers again. Or perhaps not. I might just be cynical. We have changed and we are normal human beings. So if we can change, anyone can. Or could I be wrong there, too?

[Keykeypie]

Good idea to cater for those who want meat. I wouldn't have any - I don't want to taste meat any more. I wonder if it would prolong the day when everyone would become vegetarian, though. That day would probably never arrive. Even if we did all become vegetarians something would happen to 'civilisation' and people would become hunter-gatherers again. Or perhaps not. I might just be cynical. We have changed and we are normal human beings. So if we can change, anyone can. Or could I be wrong there, too?

I don't want it anymore either....but we could buy it for furry companions.
And it sure would make a world of difference for the animals the way things are now.

Actually.....I think I might force myself to eat it....just to be supportive
....but eww....I :blecch: sure wouldn't like it!

[Bowwowmeow]

My Pa was interested in the idea of the momentum of social changes increasing its speed throughout the 20th century. He was a man born in 1893 in his parents' home, while the doctor was on his way in a horse-drawn wagon. He went from having no electricity, running water, or even gas lines in his childhood home in Colorado to seeing a man land on the Moon. That is truly more change in one century than took place in probably two or three centuries preceding the Industrial Revolution. Not that all those changes are good. But they really are happening at an increasing rate, which is why I think people will become aware of how their "food" arrives on their plates very soon. They may not care, but they will at least be unable to deny what goes on in feedlots and slaughterhouses. When an entire generation of people becomes aware of the source of the flesh they ingest, their children will surely rebel against their parents' desire to remain in denial of the suffering and cruelty, and to keep them in ignorance. This makes me think of a time when I was passing the meat department in the grocery store, and overheard a little boy ask his Dad why there was blood on the meat. His Dad, a shining example of modern Homo sapiens (and why I consider myself a mutation! ;) ) answered "I don't know." Pretty soon cowards like this won't be able to lie to their kids anymore. I am grateful at least that although my parents aren't even vegetarian, they told me the truth when I asked where the hamburgers came from. That's really where we will see the change; not in people who are already grown, though there are plenty of you guys out there who did change as adults! But real change will come with the young people, who stand a better chance of resisting the brainwashing when their parents are no longer able to lie to them about where their "food" comes from. And that's what awareness is about, to me. That's usually all I ask of anyone who argues with me about veganism. I never attempt to "convert" people. I just ask them to face up to what it really takes to get that steak on the barbeque. Some people know, and don't care. They are a lost cause. And, I think, a dying breed. But there are lots of people who will never be comfortable once they face the truth. And I believe they are going to have to be facing that truth much sooner than most of us think.

[Bowwowmeow]

Say, I've noticed that the poll is closed. Do you want me to open it up again so more people can vote?

[Keykeypie]

Say, I've noticed that the poll is closed. Do you want me to open it up again so more people can vote?

Yes.....that would be great! And Bowwow.....I just loved what you wrote
in the post above......YES...Yes...I agree with every word you said.

When an entire generation of people becomes aware of the source of the flesh they ingest, their children will surely rebel against their parents' desire to remain in denial of the suffering and cruelty, and to keep them in ignorance.?

This is why I love PETA so much because of all the good they've done the best is the whole PETA2 thing of starting with very young kids....AND IT'S WORKING!!
I wish that I could put it that before people vote on that poll, they should
spend an hour reading the boards in PETA2....not register, because it's really just for the kids.....but just read & then come back and vote.....could we do that?

[Fauxmage]

OK, I think its fixed now. Did you check to see if you could edit the poll yourself? If you see an "edit poll" option in the upper right corner, you should be able to. Unless I have disabled this in the software. You are able to edit your posts though, anytime you want. But its no trouble for me to do it. I added the bit about people checking the PETA2 boards, and fixed your link, which was opening something totally different.

I love the little chickie who says "I am not a nugget." :D

[Keykeypie]

OK, I think its fixed now. Did you check to see if you could edit the poll yourself? If you see an "edit poll" option in the upper right corner, you should be able to. Unless I have disabled this in the software. You are able to edit your posts though, anytime you want. But its no trouble for me to do it. I added the bit about people checking the PETA2 boards, and fixed your link, which was opening something totally different.

I love the little chickie who says "I am not a nugget." :D

Oh thank you!! Fauxmage,you are the best ! Sorry I didn't think about editing...next time I'll know.

OK everybody....that's your assignment for the day......go eaves drop on what this generation of kids & teens are talking about amoung themselves at Peta2 (http://streetteam.peta2.com/public/folder_view.cfm?pageid=341&option=view_topics&actionid=531) & then come back and vote....OK?
I'm telling you......I can't wait for these kids to grow up and start running the world!:cheer:

[Gliondrach]

All right. I'll have a look at the Peta2 things.

I hope you two are right about humans changing soon.