Talking about veganism and debates

[Ayashi Foxtail]

I tend to find that whenever the topic of veganism is brought up, it will turn into a debate. Someone on either side will make it into morals or will challenge the idea by pulling out excuses or fact/fiction about it... and it infuriates me.

The conversation just now turned onto it in a chatroom. I had to explain what a vegan was, etc... and there was an omni who was making jokes so old they should be buried... and then a wannabe pesca/vegetarian butts in and makes a comment just before I post asking if morals can be kept out of it before it turns into a debate.

Suddenly the wannabetarian turns around and snaps at me, to which I reply that I meant everyone not just her.

She then says "name, I should be able to state my opinions without being accused of starting a debate"
to which, after going through a few options and deciding to be a bit of a bastard, I reply "yeah, imperfect world, isn't it?"

"*** you" *leaves*

Oh well, eh?

[manzana]

I am thinking (like a lady said about vegan athletics) that the only effective way to promote veganism is to show people by example, and not debate it. They ask a simple question, and you give them a simple answer. They want to know more, you allow them to ask. They want to argue, you tell them that veganism is a beautiful thing and leave them to ponder it.

Personally, I made a bumper sticker. :)

[Gliondrach]

Personally, I made a bumper sticker. :)

What is it?

I like to debate. It gives me a chance to dispel myths and to educate. I don't expect to change the minds of the people I am debating against. For everyone taking part there will be 9.4 who are just reading the posts and not taking part. They see the lies and myths the meat eaters spread and would believe them if they weren't countered.

[manzana]

What is it?
It says veganism is a beautiful thing, in a manner of speaking.

[Gliondrach]

Right.

[Fauxmage]

I like debate. That's why I like forums, and partly why I started my own.

But friendly, polite debate. I don't worry about feelings running high, as long as people don't insult one another.

I think there is a misconception amongst those who do not like debate, which is, that people who engage in it want to "win", and since no one will change their minds, it is pointless. I find the argumentation process refines my thoughts. It is not important to me that I win or lose. It is important for me to know I am reasoning with logic, from a sound foundation, for my own sake. If I find I cannot defend a position, i need to either rethink that position, or improve my argumentation for it. It's all a matter of personal integrity for me, I guess. If someone wants to challenge my stance on something, I want to be able to defend it, because if I can't, then there is something wrong somewhere.

Finding weaknesses in my argumentation helps me find new answers and strengthen my own thought process. I find it quite enjoyable, and a big factor in that is not taking the debaters' views personally.

[vepurusg]

I tend to find that whenever the topic of veganism is brought up, it will turn into a debate.

What's wrong with that, though?

I'm with Gliondrach and Fauxmage on this point- debate can be very important, and good (particularly for a minority viewpoint).

It gives our views more press, which as mentioned, even if it never sways the person with whom one is actually arguing, there are a number of observers who will inevitably be on the fence about it.

Someone on either side will make it into morals or will challenge the idea by pulling out excuses or fact/fiction about it... and it infuriates me.

But... it is about morality (that is, veganism).

I can tell you, wearing or fur doesn't have adverse health effects (unless somebody throws paint on you or something). ;)

Some people talk about "dietary veganism" these days, but really, there's already a word for that; "vegetarian" or "pure vegetarian". Nothing wrong with those words IMO.

I don't know what your views are (and no offense if they are strictly dietary in nature), but I'd say if you want to avoid moral discussion, maybe just talk about pure vegetarian diets, with emphasis that it has nothing to do with morality, and it's just a personal choice? I've also seen vegetarians endorse meat-eating as a choice, which seems to help them avoid discussion about it.

You really have to go out of your way to dignify and justify the meat-eaters' positions if you don't want an argument. Because if you don't, whether you're attacking them or not, they will feel judged and due to either personal insecurity with their respective positions or from taking offense at what they perceive as your opinion, they will either be compelled to make excuses for themselves or attack your position.

I won't condone meat eating, so I've learned to either avoid the topic entirely, or be prepared to debate.


I would make an apt analogy, but it might be inappropriate...

[Ayashi Foxtail]

I am a moral vegan, I just don't like arguing about it. I'm not very good at social interactions on a usual basis let alone when people are attacking me. I don't mind explaining what a vegan is, why I am vegan, how long I've been vegan, etc but when someone starts trying to make me defend my position or turns into a bigot or gets offended by my veganism (for no good reason) it just makes me very angry very quickly, so I avoid it if I can.

[Bowwowmeow]

Yeah some folk are definitely no fun to put up with. I just saw a video on YouTube about a bunch of really vile comments left to a nine year old vegan girl on her YouTube channel. Some cretin told her she needs a c*** up her a**. Normally I can type those words, but not in this context. :(

[vepurusg]

This is a long post; sorry about that.


I am a moral vegan, I just don't like arguing about it. I'm not very good at social interactions on a usual basis let alone when people are attacking me.[...] when someone starts trying to make me defend my position or turns into a bigot or gets offended by my veganism (for no good reason) it just makes me very angry very quickly, so I avoid it if I can.

Maybe it would help to understand a little bit of why they are attacking you, and to be in the position to turn the tables and put them back in the defensive (rather than on the offensive).

I don't know if you've seen "The root of all evil?" (Richard Dawkins), but at one part after his interview with Ted Haggard (a famous evangelical pastor), this comes up:


We just had a rather disconcerting experience, we were just packing up our stuff ready to go and he [Haggard] suddenly drove up in his pickup truck and and said 'get off my land immediately! I’ll have you thrown in jail, I’ll seize your film!' And he then said a very curious thing; he said, 'You called my children animals'. Afterwards we worked out that what he must have meant was that I talked about evolution. He thought I was saying that his flock were animals, which of course in a sense I was because all humans are animals.


People go on the offensive like that (when you might prefer everybody just mind what you might see as their own business) because either they feel insecure about their own behavior and need to justify it, or because their own sensibilities are offended either by the notion itself, a misunderstanding of the notion, or by the implications of either. That's just human nature.

When people are offended, but don't know how to argue effectively (or have no argument), then they'll just lash out aggressively.

Unfortunately, this is generally the result of offending stupid/ignorant people. When stupid/ignorant people offend us, we're a little better at putting the problem into words.


By mentioning that you are vegan, you are sharing your world view and judgement that killing and eating animals is immoral- anybody around you who does kill and eat animals, but who personally takes pride in considering his or her self a moral individual, will tend to be offended by this (because, of course, whether they believe it to be so or not, they are doing something immoral- and specifically so in your judgement).

You might as well just point at them denouncing their immoral natures in a taunting verse, as mention quietly that you are vegan. In their perspectives, there is no difference (never mind that one is attempting to cause conflict and the other isn't; the message is the same to them, and that is what has offended them more than the means of delivery- they see it as attempting to cause conflict).

Others, beyond this, are even familiar with a minority Animal Rights position that all sentient beings are of equal value, and may think that all vegans believe that. In a sense, they will interpret that as you saying that their own lives, and the lives of all of their loves ones, are worth the same as the lives of rodents and insects (which they see as worthless, thus seemingly devaluing human life rather than giving value to non-human life). This, likewise, is offensive to them. If they can't articulate that in argument, they will go on the offensive and attack you with whatever verbal arsenal they can muster.



So, to summarize the process:

You mention you are vegan.

They are offended or feel insecure (for any number of reasons)

If they are intelligent and educated, they will probably try to articulate what has offended them to ensure there are no misunderstandings before proceeding to attack or defense.

If not (or if that resolution of misunderstandings is unsuccessful), they will either go on the defensive (and defend their positions) if they [usually] feel insecure about them/if they are trying very hard to be polite, or if they are either secure in their positions or not educated or intelligent enough to defend their own positions, they will go on the offensive.

If they happen to be intelligent enough to actually attack your position itself, they'll usually do that. Or if they aren't intelligent enough to attack your position (or are just anonymous ass-hats, or having a bad day, or perhaps just have no patience) they'll just attack you with whatever nasty words they can think up.

It's not just veganism.

You can't express any world view without the risk of offending somebody.

Atheist? The average theist may be offended by being scientifically classified with other species of animal (as Haggard above), or at the suggestion that there is no heaven or afterlife (whether articulated or not) and that their loved ones are not eternally happy in said heaven. They might also be offended by the implication that they're 'delusional'- the idea that the entity they have been talking to all of their lives/sometimes even feel friendship with doesn't exist.

Christian? It's easy for an atheist (or somebody of another religion) to be offended by the Christian's belief that it is a good/necessary thing (the will of YHWH, whom they believe to be benevolent) for atheists and people of other religions (depending on the denomination of Christianity, particularly those who have 'heard the truth' and rejected it) to burn in eternal torment (not to mention biblical views on women, homosexuals, and others).

Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu? They're all implicitly offensive to some people.

It's harder for deists and 'agnostics' to unintentionally offend people, but that's only because they are as vague and non-committal as it gets (many agnostics would assert that they have no views/opinions on the matter)- it's certainly still possible, though.



If veganism were just a fad diet, that would be one thing- but it really isn't. It's about morality, and that's linked to a certain kind of world view.

People who disagree with it are going to tend to be offended for one reason or another. C'est la vie.


You really only have three options...

1. Get angry and frustrated, as you have been, which only really serves to harm your own well being- it's letting the hecklers win.

2. Give up and keep your veganism to yourself, and only talk about it with other vegans and the small subset of people who can understand veganism and agree with the general world view (even if they aren't themselves vegan). That still kind of looks like a victory for the hecklers- they'd be glad to know their heckling is driving vegans into hiding.

3. Learn to dominate those people who become aggressive in debate, where they do try to debate, and ignore or counter-troll the hecklers.


I can't help you with the former two, but I could teach you how to win a debate, and some counter-troll tactics, if you wanted.

[Ayashi Foxtail]

Thanks for that rather long essay. I'm still sticking with what I originally said and am not going to debate it.

[vepurusg]

Thanks for that rather long essay. I'm still sticking with what I originally said and am not going to debate it.

What you originally said?

You mean option #1? You weren't entirely clear, or your point was not clear to me.

This is not a debate, it's an... eh, information session. :rolleyes:

It's interesting that you think I want to debate here. I'm thinking there's something more personal to your aversion to debate than you've told us here (I've seen this before a couple times), but I won't press you to share if you don't want to.

I hope you can get past whatever it is some day :)



Anyway, as to the point-

I don't think that you quite got that I'm trying to help you understand what's going on with these people. Where you think they're just bigots reacting for 'no good reason', in fact the reasons are deeply entrenched in their flawed, and generally delusional, world views. The reasons are very "good" in the sense that they are strong and inherently causative- though we could say the causes themselves are naturally evil.


Understanding of others' situations can, some times, help breed compassion for them and relieve the stress of the confrontation. When you understand that it is not you they are attacking, but a perceived affront to their personal little delusions, you can let that pass through you without affecting you so severely.

Manzana's responses are pretty excellent in that regard.

Getting angry at these omnivore trolls is like getting angry at the tide for coming in and washing away a sand castle.

You're trying to build a sand castle where one can not be built. A common rational approach would be to relocate, or learn to fortify with other materials.

But if you really want to build your sand castle there, and if you're averse to stone and driftwood as alternative materials, that's your choice.

Manzana's response in that analogy might just be to set a single pebble on the beach, and declare it his palace, and leave it at that (which is pretty awesome in its own way- that kind of minimalism drives trolls mad, and intrigues people who are genuinely curious).

I'm just saying that this kind of stress you're setting yourself up for is not healthy- I'm not saying that you can't do something unhealthy if you want to be self-destructive; it's your right, but it's not going to stop, no matter how much you may demand it.

Aside from actually telling them you approve of eating meat but just don't do it personally (which I mentioned before, but which doesn't seem to be the case so wouldn't work unless you're OK with lying), there's nothing you can really say to make them stop, and the more you try to make them stop, the more you'll just come out of it the villain- looking intolerant of others' opinions/hostile to "free speech" (like with that poor wanna-be pesca-whatever kid).

Down that road lie all kinds of bitterness and resentments; you have other options if you choose to take them.

Perhaps every person just has to learn that for his or herself- I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually.

If you would, though, please do yourself a favor and meditate on it a little some time when you're in a calmer place. You might save yourself a few years (or a lifetime) of stress and grief. :)

That's all I have to say. :twocents:
Peace.

[Gliondrach]

I think Ayashi meant that she doesn't want to get into debates with meat eaters on the other forums she visits. But, when veganism comes up and she tells them she is one, she doesn't want to defend her position.

There's a forum I go to where threads start about veganism (apparently, there's a vegan conspiracy) or about raw meat being our natural diet, or some other daft idea. I get involved and it can take a lot of stamina to stay the course. No matter how many times I point out the absurdity of some stance, it will come up again in another new thread. And off we go again. I think I originally joined that forum to take part in other discussions.