The Garden of Mysteries.

[Gliondrach]

I don't believe the universe came out of nothing. I believe there was a 'supernatural' force that started it all. It's difficult to understand how even a supernatural force didn't also have a beginning but, well, it's supernatural.

And what about the universe? It must have a boundary but what's beyond the boundary? Some cosmologists say space is curved and you can just travel forever without coming to the end. But that is just their theory. What is outside of the curve? :dizzy:

And another thing, there couldn't have been a Big Bang unless there was someone to hear it. Without someone to hear it, it would have just been a big explosion. It should be called the Big Explosion.

[Bowwowmeow]

I thought this was going to be about a book. I'd like to read a book called The Garden of Mysteries.

[nagev]

I don't believe the universe came out of nothing. I believe there was a 'supernatural' force that started it all. It's difficult to understand how even a supernatural force didn't also have a beginning but, well, it's supernatural.

And what about the universe? It must have a boundary but what's beyond the boundary? Some cosmologists say space is curved and you can just travel forever without coming to the end. But that is just their theory. What is outside of the curve? :dizzy:

And another thing, there couldn't have been a Big Bang unless there was someone to hear it. Without someone to hear it, it would have just been a big explosion. It should be called the Big Explosion.

I don't know really. I'm not convinced that a supernatural force started the universe because then I feel like I have to ask, where did the supernatural force come from and it's turtles all the way down... I'm ultimately stuck with either some kind of definite start or some kind of infinite of something. Either of which may be, but at the moment I don't know which. Perhaps both.

As for the curved stuff, it's not that it curves into anything really, just that space-time is curved. There is no boundary, there is no 'outside.' Or another way is that space is curved into time and time curves into space. Kind of like taking a flat sheet of paper (2 dimensions) and curving it into height (the third dimension). If there were 2-d beings and people talked about 'curved space' and that if you walked in a circle you could come back to your starting point, then that would be like on a sphere. However, time is kind of the dimension where the curving stuff happens, but it's really more complicated than that. It's really space-time that curves. Which gives rise to odd things like time moving at differing rates and spacial dimensions getting elongated or squished.

[nagev]

I thought this was going to be about a book. I'd like to read a book called The Garden of Mysteries.

Heh, that does sound like a good book!

[Gliondrach]

How could something unsupernatural not have had a beginning? And how could something have always existed? Only the supernatural answer answers the questions. And the clever part is that a supernatural force, being supernatural, can do these strange things that we can't understand.

From what we can see of the universe, it looks as if it just goes on, and on, and on. Surely, the going on-ness can continue? It doesn't end at the end of our galaxy so why should it end at the end of any galaxy? But it can't, because nothing can go on forever in space. It could in time. But not in space.

It's all a mystery.

The Garden of Mysteries is a book by the great Nitram Nagev. It's in the form of a conversation between an ancient tree and a traveller who is weary and sits down in the garden to rest. What the tree tells him or her (because it is not made clear if it is a man or a woman) changes its life and the way it sees the world. This person comes to realise that life is a journey we take and that each of us is responsible for the choices we make. Some of us travel first class and others travel second or third class. All are equal but some have luckier beginnings than others. Until the end of the book, the traveller is never sure if he or she has come to the end of the journey or is just at the end or the beginning of one stage.


What do people think about life - and what happens when death occurs? I believe we still live in some state. I'm not sure how many beings this applies to. I believe that vertebrates and some invertebrates survive as individuals but I'm not sure about the others. I think that when death occurs, at some point we wake up in some other state of existence - like waking from a dream.

[nagev]

How could something unsupernatural not have had a beginning? And how could something have always existed? Only the supernatural answer answers the questions. And the clever part is that a supernatural force, being supernatural, can do these strange things that we can't understand.

That's not clear to me. It sounds more like waving the magic wand to get an answer just to have an answer. :)

From what we can see of the universe, it looks as if it just goes on, and on, and on. Surely, the going on-ness can continue? It doesn't end at the end of our galaxy so why should it end at the end of any galaxy? But it can't, because nothing can go on forever in space. It could in time. But not in space.

I don't think that's really true though. When viewing the universe through telescopes, if an object is far away, it is also further back in time. So it makes it more complicated since we cannot view any part of the universe in real time. Also, due to the red shift, which some interpret as a space expansion, there does appear to a certain time/distance that we cannot see past. However this seems to be due more to the red shift (expanding the light to the point were we can no longer detect light).

However that doesn't really answer whether space or time continues or has continued for a finite or infinite amount of time. I don't see that there is really any way to mull the thought over to arrive at a sound conclusion. For me at least. :)


What do people think about life - and what happens when death occurs? I believe we still live in some state. I'm not sure how many beings this applies to. I believe that vertebrates and some invertebrates survive as individuals but I'm not sure about the others. I think that when death occurs, at some point we wake up in some other state of existence - like waking from a dream.

I do not know, I've entertained a variety of notions, but I'm just not sure.

If I had to pin down my thoughts I'd state that I do not necessarily think there is a 'soul' or conscious thought pattern that will continue or whatnot, but then I don't think that we disappear in an absolute sense. I suspect we're more than the sum of our parts, not unlike any other complicated machine.

[Gliondrach]

Yes, we can't see the edge of the universe but, if we could, what would be beyond the edge? Whatever space is - the space that expanded from the Big Explosion - it will have an edge to it, even though the edge is expanding. What is it expanding into? Space? Non-space? Perhaps our universe is supported on the back of a giant turtle. And that giant turtle is living on a rock which is just a grain of sand on a beach, which ....

I tend to the theory that everything is the dream of God. And we are all characters in that dream. When we dream, all the characters in the dream are created by us. But, do they have their own thoughts? Are they in some sense autonomous with their own lives that go on after we wake up? Perhaps we don't really create them. Perhaps we attract them into our dreams. I've just thought of that. I was originally just going to write the bit up to where I said: '...all the characters in the dream are created by us.' I'm beginning to get worried so had better stop.

The bit about God dreaming the universe into existence is from Hindu beliefs. Or so I believe. It's as good a theory as any. And side steps questions about the goodness or badness of God.

[nagev]

Well there is no edge. I don't think any theory in Physics supposes that there is an edge at all. Space itself, whether closed, flat, or unbounded, has no edge and no "other side."

I think the analogy models, like that of the balloon confuse people, unless they can relate the radial dimension (that perpendicular to the surface of the balloon) as time. However that is overly complicated. :)

[nagev]

Sometimes I think I need to free my mind.

Although discipline does have its merits, like a 'free' piano wire cannot play any notes, so it would seem that a little bit of constraint, similar to discipline, could make one more 'free' to do other things.

Where to find the balance?

[Gliondrach]

I wonder if it's a theory that space beyond the universe is nothingness and that it extends as far as it extends? And that is further than the universe has so far extended?

If so, I wonder what's beyond the furtherest extent of nothingness?

I know there are proabably theories and mathematical models that are used but, we on this planet can travel in a rocket and could, as far as it is possible to imagine, just keep on going beyond where the universe has expanded to. It's a fast rocket. Then what would happen? We would be beyond the universe but still travelling. How far could we go? This rocket can fly in a vacuum. There has to be some end to how far we could travel but there can't be an end.

Space and time curving into each other is just a theory. A bit like using supernatural force to answer the unanswerable. But supernatural force has the advantage of being supernatural and able to do anything.

It's all very strange. :dizzy: Not even Doctor Who knows. Perhaps everything is just one of my dreams.

There are some people (not me) who believe that we all live in our own universe and everything in each universe is a creation/illusion of that person. :hungry:

[nagev]

I wonder if it's a theory that space beyond the universe is nothingness and that it extends as far as it extends? And that is further than the universe has so far extended?

I don't think it's a working theory in Physics. By working theory I mean an actual theory with supporting evidence, predictive properties, and people pursuing it. I'm sure many people conjecture it though.

If so, I wonder what's beyond the furtherest extent of nothingness?

Well, unfortunately if we're talking about the current paradigm in Physics, the Big Bang, with expanding space and all that, this question just doesn't make sense nor questions about the edge of the universe and all that. I guess it's like asking what happened before time existed. It doesn't make sense. At least from our point of view.

Space and time curving into each other is just a theory. A bit like using supernatural force to answer the unanswerable. But supernatural force has the advantage of being supernatural and able to do anything.

I disagree. A theory (in scientific terms and not just in common usage, so not just a hypothesis), has predictive properties as well as evidence to support. Resorting to supernatural (which really means beyond the natural and I'm not even sure I understand what that means) we might as well just let our imagination run while. We could have a new idea every moment to describe everything and then the next moment have a different new one. They could all be supernatural too. Unfortunately it's like the 'magic' hand waving.

Not that science is the end all or that science has all the answers (maybe it so far has been lucky or good at asking questions which it can answer). However if we're starting from the the Big Bang, an idea of science, based on curved space and time, then it doesn't make sense to contradict that and ignore the foundations of the theory but still hold on to some of the predictions. Well it doesn't make sense to me.

What supernatural concept describes the observed evidence (that say the Big Bang theory describes) as well as has some kind of predictive qualities? Then we can go out and measure/observe these predictions to see if it has any validation.

To me, the universe includes anything and everything that we could possibly see, measure, observe, or interact with. If there is such a thing as a 'supernatural' force that somehow is beyond this universe then it either cannot interact with this universe (and therefor doesn't really matter for all intents and purposes) or if it can then our universe is actually bigger than we realized and so must include this supernatural force (and we just do not understand it). Then it's not really a supernatural force, just one we do not understand.

So to me, I don't understand why supernatural forces would ever be invoked to explain anything. It's either not relevant (since it can't and didn't do anything here) or it's actually not a supernatural force (just something we don't understand yet).

There are some people (not me) who believe that we all live in our own universe and everything in each universe is a creation/illusion of that person. :hungry:

I have thought of that before. I've also wondered if from our point of view we have the longest time line. So from my point of view I live as long as is possible (say from in terms of all possible time lines). In effect I have isolated one specific time line possibility. This would give rise to many of those 'just barely survived' or 'it is amazing I made it out of that without getting hurt' situations.

From other points of view though, people live in a universe/existence where they live the longest and it's possible I died early in their existence.

/ramble of an idea

[Gliondrach]

It does make sense to me, in a way, that something could exist before time began. I don't see how time could have begun. By 'time' I mean the sensation of being able to know that 'now' is not 'then'. And that what is 'now' will soon be 'then'. So, if some 'supernatural' intelligence (or God, if people prefer) - perhaps 'preternatural' is better - was existing and twiddling its thumbs before the Big Explosion and before time as physics understands it began, this intelligence would have been aware that 'then' used to be 'now'. There were no atoms or particles or energy except this intelligence.

What my main idea/belief, is, is that there can't have been a moment when something came out of nothing. Except that this intelligence - being magical or preternatural - was there when nothing else was there. The preternaturalness or supernaturalness I mean ties in with my belief that there was a God who existed alone before starting the Big Bang. It was outside of nature because there was no nature. Once the universe - or universes - started, there might no longer have been a God. Because it became everything.

I don't think we'll be able to agree because we both have such different beliefs. Or perhaps we don't. Perhaps we just use different words. But all beliefs are welcome here. As the Creator of this thread, I decree it to be so. And it is so. And I see that it is good. :professor:

Now, your last point is very interesting. Is this along the lines of the Many Worlds Interpretation?

[nagev]

I guess I just don't really know what it means to exist if time isn't part of existence. I suppose it's like me trying to imagine the size of the solar system or galaxy in relation to me. I can do all sorts of analogies, but I sure can't get my mind to give me an accurate picture.

As for the last comment, yeah, I suppose it's related. Basically that there are an infinite or just a really large number of possibilities from this point. It's just that our essence is able to experience that one which is either the 'best' in some way or simply the longest, or perhaps the life where by we learn/grow the most.

I don't know. It has just been a thought that has bounced around my head since I was a wee boy. I have more that come out from time to time too. :)

[Gliondrach]

The MWI is fascinating and barmy at the same time. But no dafter than anything about life and the universe. It all seems daft when you think about it. Like some strange joke.

I tend towards the idea that everything that could happen is happening now. All the other versions of us may or may not be aware. Perhaps they are unaware. Perhaps only one of us is aware and, at the moment of decision, our consciousness is transferred to the version who matches the decision we just made. We then become aware of that version. As all versions have had exactly the same past we don't notice that we have switched. When I say all versions had exactly the same past, I mean all the limitless versions 'created' at the moment we make the decision.

Or perhaps not.

[nagev]

So was the the first chapter of the The Garden of Mysteries?

Chapter 2? What's it's topic?

I'm interested in some deep discussion, reading, or something. I can't really think of anything though.

[Gliondrach]

Well, you could tell us your ideas or beliefs about some things. Mysterious things. Or try to explain some mysteries.

[nagev]

Gosh, if anything I think I'm regressing in my beliefs. As a child I believed in everything. Then about late high school and into college, I distilled that into only what 'scientists' tell me. Then near the end of my college career, I started opening up and after a long progression, I'm not sure what I believe in. In fact I would say I know very little and have been redefining what it is I think I know.

I'll think about it today while I'm working and get back to you.

[Gliondrach]

Things that we unbelieve in can also be topics here.

[nagev]

I used to think that dreams were not actually dreams at all, but transitions to different realities. In dreams sometimes I remember vividly this reality, other times I do not and I feel completely at home. However, the dreams tend to fade from memory when I'm in this reality, likewise, when I'm in a dream reality this reality tends to fade.

When I say dream, I really mean a reality different than the current one (so this reality would be a dream when I'm not in this reality).

[Gliondrach]

When you are dreaming (in the sleep reality) and you are aware that there is a waking reality, are these lucid dreams? Do you know they are sleeping reality dreams?

[nagev]

Hmm. I can't remember really. I know I've tried to remember stuff in dreams. Sometimes I remember different events there, but I can't remember ever talking about a dream in a dream.

[nagev]

Wow, I can't believe this was from just over a year ago. I saw the title and I was thinking, that sounds interesting. :)

I don't really have any deep thoughts to add though.

At times I believe everything and nothing. At times my mind is too disciplined and yet not disciplined at all (or enough).

When I was younger I believed 'aliens' visited the Earth. The little grey, big eyed, no hair style aliens. Only I had a pet hypothesis that they were actually humans, from the future. After many thousands (possibly millions) of years, the Earth was thrust into near destruction due to human activities and humans had to move underground (which drove the evolutionary advantages that we see in the stylized aliens. Pale skin, large eyes, no hair, etc. After so long, they developed time travel, so now they're doing temporal archeology. :p

/random thought

I don't believe that anymore, but it sounds interesting. :)

Is having 'untrue' beliefs damaging, even if they make you feel better?

Although, I suppose having 'true' beliefs could be damaging. Maybe it's all perspective and questions like that are nonsensical.

Or perhaps is it better to have a belief in something true or not true? How does one know? Should it depend on how it makes one feel (as in myself) or should it be in some way the totality of the impact of said belief?

[Gliondrach]

I think any belief that helps us is good. We can't know if they are true or untrue until we get proof one way or the other. Some beliefs can never be proved or disproved, though. As long as the beliefs don't lead anyone to cause damage to themselves or others and they are helpful in some way, they are good.

[nagev]

I think any belief that helps us is good. We can't know if they are true or untrue until we get proof one way or the other.

I agree, kind of. :)

It's just that some may help us, but also have unintended consequences. They may help us feel good, but then they lead us to incorrect conclusions about other matters (a false proposition leads to any conclusion). I guess that's the part I have difficulty with. :crazy:

Some beliefs can never be proved or disproved, though.

I agree. Then I feel like why should 'I' believe in them or why should anyone believe in them?

As long as the beliefs don't lead anyone to cause damage to themselves or others and they are helpful in some way, they are good.

I guess this gets back to my earlier issue. A false proposition (claim, assumption, 'belief') can lead us to any conclusion. Since there are some conclusions which are 'bad' or at least most people would agree are 'bad' then that means believing in a false proposition is bad...?

I don't know. My torments I suppose.

[Gliondrach]

There are some beliefs that can never be proved beyond all doubt. As the great Nitram Nagev has said: all history is belief unless you personally experienced it. I can only believe that there was such a thing as the First World War. It could all be a big lie. Any proof offered could be fake. The eyewitnesses could by lying. Unlikely, but I don't know. I only believe.

Astrophysicists tell us the universe is so many milliards of years old. They say time had a beginning. I can only choose to believe them - I don't know. Even if I had the knowledge and equipment to do the measurements, it might still be wrong. They are working from their limited knowledge of the universe. It is like the inhabitants of the fictional 2-dimensional Flatland. There would be certain measuresments they couldn't make because they lack a third dimension of space. Their theories of the universe would make sense to them and they would invent equations to prove them. Our measurements are based on what we know. Anything postulated about unknown things can only be based on what we know. If the mathematics seems to prove the theories, the mathematics could be wrong. As the mathematics of the Flatlanders would be wrong. But they wouldn't see the wrongness. They would only see the rightness. :updn:

Truly do we live in a garden of mysteries. :painting:

[Fauxmage]

As the great Nitram Nagev has said: all history is belief unless you personally experienced it.
Yep. So is the news. :agree:

[nagev]

Maybe it's just my personal issue with the word/concept behind 'belief.'

I try hard not to say or state that I believe in this or that. I try to view the world as probabilities and possibilities rather than absolutes.

Maybe that's wrong though. ;)

[Gliondrach]

Do you believe in probabilities and possibilities? :whistle:

[nagev]

Do you believe in probabilities and possibilities? :whistle:

Nope. I view it such that they may exist. That they possibly exist. ;)

[Gliondrach]

You should go into politics - you are as slippery as an eel. :rubchin:

[nagev]

You should go into politics - you are as slippery as an eel. :rubchin:

That may be possible, but mostly likely improbable. ;)

Although I don't like politics.

[Bowwowmeow]

:lol: