B-12 conundrum

[vavaving]

Hi, I'm wondering if you've come across a vitamin B-12 supplement (in a bottle) that does not contain a megadose far and beyond the daily reference value (between 2 to 6 mcg).

Isolated B-12 goes from 250mcg up to several mg--thousands of times more than recommended intake. B-complex offerings list an ultradose of at least one vitamin (as with nutritional yeast), while multivitamins tend to contain animal sources and other curiosities in their laundry list of ingredients.

So at the moment I'm on "Rhino Sour Gummy Bear Vitamins". I find it rather laughable that those are my best prospect for health and uh peace of mind...

[Gliondrach]

Welcome Vavaving.

In the UK, Holland and Barrett sell vegan multivitamin and mineral tablets that contain 2.5 mcg of B12. And their 'B50-Complex' tablets that contain 50 mcg. This is also suitable for vegans.

[vavaving]

Thanks for that.

[Fauxmage]

Some people either break the tablets into smaller bits, or only take the mega dose once or twice a week. The liver does store B12, so you don't have to take tiny doses every day. One or two megadoses a week won't necessarily be wasted. They'll be stored in your liver, until your liver reaches full capacity.

[vavaving]

I appreciate your suggestion, although I find it bizarre that manufacturers can put just enough B-12 in a multivitamin, but always seem to multiply the dose in a supplement. Would everyone intentionally take a thousand pills if those weren't already concentrated? I have to wonder about the policy of an upper limit not being set due to us not knowing any better. We know in general that too much of any chemical is harmful. I don't even know if I need the stuff, but would certainly choose to err on the side of caution if I truly had that option.

[squirrel]

I take a daily multi vitamin including B12 as well as a high dose B12 tablet due to health problems. The dose in the multi vitamin was not sufficient to prevent me developing mild B12 deficiency, hence the high dose tablet as well.

All the research I looked at found no problems with long term use of high dose B12.

[1vegan]

We know in general that too much of any chemical is harmful. I don't even know if I need the stuff, but would certainly choose to err on the side of caution if I truly had that option.

If you want to err on the side of caution regarding B12, you better take more then that daily.

Get some information about b12 from the vegan society, they researched it from the vegan point of view, so not with the intention to sell a lot of vitamins.
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30525&postcount=7

Or check here http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/rec

# 1.5 - 2.5 µg, twice a day, from fortified foods or supplements1
# 10 - 100 µg, once a day, from a supplement1,

So, do some research, because the damage of a b12 shortage can be IRREVERSIBLE.

10ug per day is sort of the minimum seeing the absorption factors, and more then that is only better for you.

[vavaving]

Research amounts to conflicting information though. Why should I believe that the reference value listed on a label's nutritional information is set far too low? Does that mean that every label is off, or just the one for B-12? Taking more than the reference value is not being cautious. It may be excessive.

[1vegan]

Research amounts to conflicting information though. Why should I believe that the reference value listed on a label's nutritional information is set far too low? Does that mean that every label is off, or just the one for B-12? Taking more than the reference value is not being cautious. It may be excessive.

If you're looking for problems, you'll always find them.
Why do you believe you need vitamins in the first place?

The information is very clear on important things:

- b 12 shortage can be unnoticed for a while and damage can be irreversible

- even though there has been a lot of research, nothing seems to say that more then the "guess-timate" of the RDA will harm you.

If you're so focused on vitamins, you better start with checking what your levels are now.

It's your health, you're free to ruin it ;)

[vavaving]

even though there has been a lot of research, nothing seems to say that more then the "guess-timate" of the RDA will harm you

I've read that cancer cells are more likely to divide and proliferate when B12 levels are excessively high, for one thing. The problem being that if one wants to take less than a megadose, its not really an option.

[1vegan]

I've read that cancer cells are more likely to divide and proliferate when B12 levels are excessively high, for one thing. The problem being that if one wants to take less than a megadose, its not really an option.

Show me where you get that from.

Higher b-12 levels have a possitive influence on homocystine levels, and if I remember correctly, that would reduce chances of cancer.

I'm sorry, but some how you seem to be looking for a reason so you can keep believing you don't need b-12.

Imho it's a phase that some vegans go through.
Do proper research, you're focusing on the wrong numbers here.

I take about 1000-2000 ug a day, but there is soooo little absorbed that I don't get the doses that you seem to think I get.

If you're worried about health and chemicals... I hope you don't live in the city with exhaust fumes all over the place?

[vavaving]

I'm sorry, but some how you seem to be looking for a reason so you can keep believing you don't need b-12.

Actually I'm looking for a supplement that doesn't force me to megadose.

[Fauxmage]

I can understand your concerns vavaving. I have never read that B12 overdose can aid cancer, but if I had, I would be concerned, especially if there was a history of cancer in my family. Everything I have read tells me that B12 megadoses are harmless though.

I still don't fully understand the problems associated with low B12 intake. As it most often arises, not due to dietary deficiency, but a loss of ability to absorb it, I wonder sometimes what good it does to take a supplement if the body cannot make use of it. People who eat the standard processed and meat laden diet still suffer from B12 deficiency anemia, when their bodies lose the ability to absorb it, and they are getting plenty from meats and fortified foods. The food manufacturing industries don't fortify foods with B12 for vegans only.

I have also read works by vegan nutritionists who do not feel supplements are necessary, and claim not to take them.

I do take everything I read with a grain of salt though.

And to be safe, I do take B12, not daily though. I am satisfied enough with what I have read on it to take methylcobalamin, unfortunately the most expensive variety, and seemingly not available in anything but megadoses. It is a sublingual tablet, that bypasses the digestive tract, and goes straight into the bloodstream. However, I have even read that this may not be sufficient. You just can't get a straight story no matter what you decide to take!

But maybe you should choose a fortified food, and only take a portion of that food that contains the minimum RDA, and avoid supplements altogether. It might be a much easier way to control your intake, if you remain concerned about higher doses.

[vavaving]

It seems to be a conundrum.

[1vegan]

It seems to be a conundrum.
or http://www.tfd.com/refuse

re·fuse 1 (r-fyz)
v. re·fused, re·fus·ing, re·fus·es
v.tr.
1.
a. To indicate unwillingness to do, accept, give, or allow
b. To indicate unwillingness (to do something)

;)

[vavaving]

Its often in the nuances.

[squirrel]

It's very hard to overdose of B12. As far as I know any excess is excreted through your urine.

A deficiency of B12 however is VERY serious and can result in permanent nerve damage.

[vavaving]

Are you implying that it is common sense that megadoses are good for you? This is the impression I'm getting from most of these responses.

Where do you draw the line, then? How about a few grams per day... as long as its in a package, right?

[Soynut]

And to be safe, I do take B12, not daily though. I am satisfied enough with what I have read on it to take methylcobalamin, unfortunately the most expensive variety, and seemingly not available in anything but megadoses. It is a sublingual tablet, that bypasses the digestive tract, and goes straight into the bloodstream.

I also take methylcobalamin a few times a week plus a multi vitamin daily, and I don't worry too much about it other than just trying to eat a well balanced diet.:)

[Bowwowmeow]

Yes, too much worry will undo all the good your vitamin and mineral intake do!

[1vegan]

Are you implying that it is common sense that megadoses are good for you? This is the impression I'm getting from most of these responses.

Where do you draw the line, then? How about a few grams per day... as long as its in a package, right?

I say, make sure you get enough water, and remember that when your mouth is open in the shower, not all that water counts as water intake.

You say, but it's a chemical mix of hydrogen and oxygen! scary stuff! I'm not going to drink water if I can help it cause all the water that runs through the shower(drain) might just kill me.

What do you do with the other chemicals that are in supermarket products and such?
Read your labels and look up what the E-numbers mean ;)

B12; I don't know if you should even call it a chemical as it is a product made by bacteria.

[vavaving]

Would you drink a thousand times or so the recommended daily intake of water? I wouldn't suggest it.

[Soynut]

Yes, too much worry will undo all the good your vitamin and mineral intake do!

Yeah, I might be deficient in some vitamin or mineral like I believe the majority of people are today. But when I tested for the most common ones, I have normal levels and I feel great... so I have no reason to worry.:)

[squirrel]

Are you implying that it is common sense that megadoses are good for you? This is the impression I'm getting from most of these responses.

Where do you draw the line, then? How about a few grams per day... as long as its in a package, right?
It's entirely up to the individual as to where they feel comfortable with supplements.

I just wanted to say that regarding B12 a deficiency is proven to be more detrimentental to your health than a high dose.

[1vegan]

Would you drink a thousand times or so the recommended daily intake of water? I wouldn't suggest it.

And this is exactly your problem, not b12.

You say some one shouldn't shower, because too much water is bad for you.

You don't want to see, or are incapable to make a valid rational comparison. You don't have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to know that people do need water, and that not enough water causes problems, even death.

So, if you think that having a shower can be dangerous and therefore think one shouldn't drink water at all..... maybe you already have a b12 deficiency.

Mental problems can also be a sign of b12 shortage ;)

The only one who's gonna solve your "b12 problem" is probably a shrink.

Good luck on ruining your health, please never say (other) vegans never warned you for the dangers regarding b12.

[vavaving]

The situation is irrational, not I. There are as many reasons not to megadose. Although, I shouldn't need a reason not to do so. The fact is, it isn't entirely up to the individual as to where they feel comfortable with supplements, as I've pointed out...

[Fauxmage]

Yes, I am sure that one person expressing doubt about megadoses won't lead others astray. Human nutrition is still apparently very poorly understood.

I will add that the RDAs are established as the minimum amount of any given nutrient required to avoid deficiency disease. Maximum amounts of some nutrients are known by the symptoms they cause, but most of these symptoms disappear almost immediately upon reduction of intake, and generally its the fat soluble nutrients like A and D that must be taken in moderation.

Optimal dosages are not known, and perhaps cannot be known, as individuals may have different needs and tolerances. Anyone who is truly concerned really ought to see a doctor to have their levels checked, and a suggestion for a safe dose made.

[1vegan]

The situation is irrational, not I..
As I said before, good luck on finding treatment for your (mental) problems ;)

[vavaving]

Speak for yourself.

[vavaving]

Yes, I am sure that one person expressing doubt about megadoses won't lead others astray. Human nutrition is still apparently very poorly understood...
I was surprised at the responses, to say the least.

[Fauxmage]

Yes, I think I will close this thread for the time being. Sorry!