The Death Penalty

[Bunny]

What do people think of the death penalty?

I appreciate that this could open a huge discussion (And I apologise if it does) but I feel very strongly against the death penalty. Not because I am a bleeding heart liberal (although, that may be true) but because I don't feel that anyone has the right to judge another in that way. I hate the feeling that killing is wrong unless it is ordained by the state. Not to mention all the scary facts and figures (such as, the wrong convictions, the lack of a falling crime rate, the high proportion of African-American inmates).

I was thinking of being a penpal to a death row inmate. What do people think? It would purely be to give them someone to write to. I wouldn't be interested in their crimes, or any of that, just in providing someone with a chance to talk to someone about themselves when they are sentenced to die.

Do you (honestly) think I would be making a terrible mistake? I am torn. On the one hand it is something I would like to do. On the other hand, I can see that it could all go terribly wrong....

[Oracl]

I am totally opposed to the death penalty. I personally could not execute anyone so I would not expect anyone else to do this terrible job, however horrific the crime was. People who demand the death penalty should be prepared to carry it out themselves. (Similarly, people who eat meat should be required to work in an abattoir.) :soap:

Writing to a death row inmate could be quite devastating for you, Bunny, so think carefully before you start this. :rubchin:

[Pob]

I am totally opposed to it, too, for the same reasons as Bunny and Oracl.

I do think the prison system in this country is rubbish, and it generally fails to rehabilitate those that could/should be rehabilitated. But that's a different problem.

Most countries with the death penalty don't have any better crime rates than any other country. I don't believe anyone has shown a correlation between death penalties and a reduction in crime.

I think it would be interesting, Bunny, although I think I would be quite choosy about what sort of criminal I would want to talk to.

*Imagines Bunny as that Catherine Tate character*

[veggiesosage]

I think whoever told you there hadn't been a murder in Barbados in 20 years was a bit mistaken. From the Barbados Crime Survey 2002 (http://www.barbados.gov.bb/Docs/Views_and_beliefs.pdf);

'The numbers of murders have been
relatively stable since 1998 – varying between 20 and 26 a year and showing
a slight upward trend'

Not strictly within your time scale I know but nearly there. In fact Barbados' murder rate is about half as high again as the US (7.5 per 100,000), although nowhere near as high as Jamaica's which is 49 per 100,000, nor Venezuela at 65 per 100,000. Bermuda's is 1.56 per 100,000. US and Jamaica still have the death penalty (although Jamaica's s currently on a moratorium), Venezuela and Bermuda do not. Having the death penalty seems to have little effect on murder rates, certainly when viewed alone.

Also, I think you've got a bit confused over the Stephen Lawrence murder as nobody has ever been convicted for that.

The trouble with DNA evidence is that its not always there. For example in shootings the perpetrator is too far away and police often comment about criminals being 'fornscally aware'. Also, even if there is DNA evidence, there is usually a question as to how it got there. Its not always conclusive.

The Barry George case is a recent example of how other forensic evidence can be misleading. It took two appeals for his conviction to be overturned. With all the media attention he would have been strung up and no mistake.

Ghandi's quote 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind' is, to me one one of the most concise arguments against the death penalty. Essentially, if we say 'you kill someone and we'll kill you back' what argument have we got that we're any better? The death penalty isn't about justice, its about brute force and revenge.

Bunny, as to whether its a good idea to correspond with a death row prisoner I've no idea. One of my friends did it with no apparent ill effects. Personally I don't think I'd cope very well if the sentence was carried out. I've never really looked into it myself (not least because I'm the world's least reliable correspondent). I'd get as much info as you can from the organisation that puts you in touch, presumably Amnesty?

[Bunny]

Thanks for the replies :) It is such an interesting topic. I honestly don't think I could kill someone in cold blood. It is a very different thing to kill someone in the heat of rage. For example if you came into the room and found someone harming someone you loved, I think it would be fairly easy to kill/harm them there and then. However, years down the line, if someone brought you that same person, would you still be able to kill them? I think you'd need to wind yourself back up to that same rage.

When I see the war criminals being paraded on the news and I know the terrible crimes they committed I find it hard to find the hardness that requires they now spend the rest of their lives in prison. Who knows what we may do in fear of our own lives?

I also think that there is a big difference between young, uneducated people who kill in street war fare because they know no better, to a serial killer who kills because there is something fundamentally wrong with them inside. There is an awful statistic that states that a young African-American who committs murder and is sentenced to death, will probably live longer than if he stays on the streets.

In the case of most murder I think we owe those people the help they need. Whether they need psychiatric care for the rest of their lives, or rehabilitation to get away from everything and have some chance of a decent life then that is what we should provide. Awful as it is, a peodophile has something wrong with them. They are unlikely to choose to be the way they are. (Perhaps I am terribly naive) I think we should look at things like castration before we look at murder.

In a way, with the death penalty, I feel we are saying that our reason for committing murder is a better reason for committing murder than someone else's. I don't feel we have the right to make that choice.

If the prison system was funded better and was more of a punishment and with more rehabilitation then perhaps crime rates would fall. If our social system was better and people were given support in their every day lives then perhaps we would have less crime. The reasons for crime won't change with the penalty being worse.

As for being a penpal, I am still undecided. I would find it so hard to have someone I was talking to be killed. No matter what they'd done really. I know I sound like I am naive and far too liberal for my own good, but I don't feel that it is my place to judge. I find this such a hard situation.

Your replies have been so well thought out. Thanks for the stats Veggie :).

Ghandi's quote 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind' is, to me one one of the most concise arguments against the death penalty. Essentially, if we say 'you kill someone and we'll kill you back' what argument have we got that we're any better? The death penalty isn't about justice, its about brute force and revenge.

Very well said!

[veggiesosage]

Here's (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) a more comprehensive and more traceable set of stats for murder rates by country, although its still not that recent being 98-00.

[Bunny]

Oh I don't think I'd be able to forgive necessarily... I just don't think I would want someone killed in my name. It wouldn't bring them back, it would just mean I was guilty too.

Forgiveness is a whole different thing!

[Bunny]

I'm not at all into an eye for an eye. I don't think it works for anyone. I'll bet Gandhi hasn't changed his mind ;)

[Bunny]

Unless someone stole my cake. Then I'd steal their cake. Then it works :D

*is inconsistent*

[Bunny]

I find it so interesting how we all have such different views on things. I love people!

[Raven]

No i dont believe in the death penalty either. If prison was more like a punishment then i think that would deter some people, inside is far to comfy in the uk. The fact is it doesnt work, how many people are on death row in the US? and people know they could get the death penalty when they commit the crime but it doesnt stop them. I also believe that life should mean life and it sickens me when someone gets 3 years for murder. I dont believe in a eye for an eye but to be honest i dont know if that would change if something happened to someone i loved.

[Gliondrach]

I am opposed to capital punishment no matter how guilty someone is or what the crime was.

[Fauxmage]

I am very into an eye for an eye and for that reason I would disagree with Gandhi who himself was murdered.
I have a very deep, fundamental, philosophical problem with the idea that humans who murder innocent people should be immune from having their own lives taken. My veganism is based on not doing anything to another that I wouldn't be willing to be done to me, and I think that if a person is willing to kill someone else for no good reason, they should be prepared to receive the same.

Still, I don't know where I stand on the death penalty. But I sure do know where I stand on people who kill those who have murdered their loved ones. I think in many cases, though all killing is wrong, some killing is either excusable, or justified. Which aren't the same things as making killing right.

I disagree with that eye-for-an-eye saying of Gandhi's too Tails. I don't have a problem with the whole world being blinded if that's what it takes to keep them from being able to see their potential victims, and make more of them. Some people seem to have access to a bottomless well of monstrous cruelty, and it seems as though allowing many innocent people to lose their lives to murderers is an acceptable price to pay to allow the those who have not yet been victimized the luxury of not getting their own hands, and souls, dirty in the process of doing something to stop it.

[Oracl]

Unless someone stole my cake. Then I'd steal their cake. Then it works :D

*is inconsistent*
:laugh:

[Soynut]

I'm strongly opposed to the death penalty, as a matter of fact, it's as important to me as animal rights. It's a human rights issue. First of all, we don't know how many of the people who have been executed were innocent. If you knew how many mistakes and how the system sometimes can work against innocent people who can't afford top notch legal assistance, I think there's a high possibility you would change your mind and start having nightmares.

The cases that have surfaced in the last few years have been quite a few in part thanks to The Innocence Project, an organization dedicated to helping people falsely convicted. www.innocenceproject.org (PLEASE, look at some of the cases on this site!) Most of the time, if not all the time, these people had limited funds. Keep in mind that there's possibility that decent non-violent people like me and you are on the death row.

Secondly, I detest brutal murderers as much as anyone, and I don't believe rehabilitating serial killers and such, but I don't believe in state sanctioned murders either. To show the rest of society that killing is wrong by killing is just plain wrong. And it does not deter crimes... in fact, deadly crime rates are lower in countries with no death penalty.

[Soynut]

If your loved one was killed and the killer went to prison its not closure.


What if a loved one was falsely convicted and on death row? No legal system is fool proof, but some are so much worse than others.

[Soynut]

If killers would be locked away for their natural life and the key thrown away. Then I would agree.


Well, this is often the case here in US, life without parole. The prisons here are notorious, where sometimes non-violent inmates come out violent and a danger to society.

In California there's even a 3 strike law, which means that if you commit 3 serious crimes (can all be non-violent) you can get life. Imagine having an unruly disobedient teenager at home... It would make me very nervous!

[Soynut]

What does 'tagged' mean, tails?

[Soynut]

Oh, I see, they have them in US too, I think.

[veggiesosage]

Any of you heard of a writer called Erwin James (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/erwinjames)? He's a former lifer turned author and is one of the most thoughtful writers on penal policy I know of.

Edit; the above is a link to his Guardian columns, he's got his own website (http://erwinjames.co.uk/) too.

[Soynut]

To answer your question, Bunny - I would not do this by myself (as you don't know who or what you'll be dealing with), I would go through an organization which can help you. Someone mentioned Amnesty... maybe they can help?
Also, if you want to get involved in other ways you can support this organization www.innocenceproject.com

[Gliondrach]

It a ankle tag that is electronically traced, so wherever the prisoner goes it can be traced. They have to (I think) regularly go into the police station for them to cehck it out. It like parole I guess with strings attached.


I don't think the tags are tied on with string. It must be something more secure than string.

[Raven]

Cable ties?

[Bunny]

Thanks for all the replies :)

If I did do this it would definitely be through an organisation, I was just interested to see what people thought. I think I would find it a very difficult thing to do, but possibly rewarding. I still don't know!

[Bunny]

That is so sad imo. He was a young lad, he made a mistake. I'll bet the boys who got into the car knew he was on coke. I would argue that being on coke isn't necessarily a reason to crash. Killing never has a valid reason. A little boy has no dad, and those two lads are still dead. Things like this are horrible. :( It was horrible that he killed those other two lads and horrible that he is now dead. Senseless :(

Perhaps writing to a death row inmant is too much for me!

[Soynut]

Agree, Bunny, he was very young when he crashed and killed 2 people. Not justified by any means, but youngsters can have very bad impulse control and judgement. I did very stupid things (never as serious as this, though) as a teenager that I would never dream of doing today. It's a tragic story and it will have a huge impact on family and friends of the diseased.

[Soynut]

Also the saddest part to me, is he had a partner and a young child.
I wonder if the ones murdered him were aware of that?.


I'm pretty sure they didn't care whatever he was a son, father or a brother.:(

[Soynut]

I don't know, tails, but I think it's pretty senseless since it doesn't bring back those two dead guys and only brings more pain to innocent people.

Sure, if someone would INTENTIONALLY murder any of my loved ones, I would HATE that person for the rest of my life. I'm not into the whole forgiveness thing as I don't think that would resolve anything within myself and take away any pain.

I'm just against the death penalty and 'throw away the key' punishment for the reasons I mentioned above. Although severely disturbed individuals, psychopaths who murder again and again, should be looked up forever to protect the rest of society.

[Soynut]

Nope, I don't think there is, Tails....:disbelief: It would haunt me to for the rest of my life, too, but that's unfortunately something I would have to live with. To have the government execute the person won't bring my loved one back...

[Bunny]

Well said Soynut :) I totally missed this thread being answered (even though it's mine).

[Pob]

The death penalty also creates monsters. Anyone who cold bloodedly administers the death penalty is as much a monster as any other murderer.

[Bunny]

The death penalty also creates monsters. Anyone who cold bloodedly administers the death penalty is as much a monster as any other murderer.

That is what I have a problem with! Who decided what murder is allowed and what isn't?!!!

:disbelief:

[thevegantwins]

I am totally opposed to the death penalty. I personally could not execute anyone so I would not expect anyone else to do this terrible job, however horrific the crime was. People who demand the death penalty should be prepared to carry it out themselves. (Similarly, people who eat meat should be required to work in an abattoir.) :soap:

Writing to a death row inmate could be quite devastating for you, Bunny, so think carefully before you start this. :rubchin:

Agreed.

Also, states that have the death penalty in the US and use it the most have some of the highest murder rates. It has been proven statistically that the death penalty does not decur crime. I see child molesters and murderers in my job on a regular basis. These people make me sick but I can't look at them in their face and say, "You deserve to die." I certainly would not feel remorse if they fell off a building and died but I do not believe any human has the right to take the life of any other human. Another issue with the death penalty is that way too many executed people have later been exonerated.

[Gliondrach]

It's said that when there were public executions of pick pockets, there were people picking the pockets of those who were there to watch the execution.