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Bowwowmeow
03-04-2008, 07:26 PM
Here is an interesting article that might get us started on a discussion of rights vs. welfare:

Animal Producers From Mars, Animal Lovers From Venus?
Submitted by Editor on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 11:53am.

Charlene M. Shupp
Espenshade
Special Sections Editor

BALTIMORE — A woman from Australia married a dolphin recently. Sound impossible? It is just one of countless stories of the new roles animals play in people’s lives.

“Animal welfare has absolutely nothing to do with animals,” says Wes Jamison, a professor of agricultural and natural resource politics.

Jamison has been studying the animal rights and welfare movement for nearly two decades. He spoke here at the American Farm Bureau Federation (AFBF) Young Farmer and Rancher Leadership Conference last weekend, proposing the notion that “animal producers are from Mars and animal lovers are from Venus” (a takeoff on the popular book called “Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus”).

The challenge lies in that agriculture is a small minority in this country. Only about 3 million out of the country’s 304 million people are in animal agriculture. Problems arise when the world of the consumer and animal agriculture collide.

“You have a society and culture that does not understand what you do,” he said.

The urbanization of the American population has led to seemingly irresolvable differences between society’s fundamental beliefs and agriculture’s.

Compounding the issue is the loss of mid-size farms to either accomplish economies of scale or downsize into niche markets.

There is “consumer confusion” regarding animals. Most consumers want animals to be both “the center of their lives and the center of their dinner plate,” according to Jamison. “You have conflicting images and realities.”

The problem, he said, is between the difference in the role of animals in consumers’ lives and the role of animals on the farm.

For the consumer, animal production is a morality issue, according to Jamison. Agriculture, he said, has tried to answer these morality questions with science and economics, but must find a better way to address the morality issue.

“We keep talking in terms of science and economics when this has nothing to do with science and economics, in fact it has nothing to do with animals,” he said. “Animals in modern culture are more than just commodities.”

Agriculture has become a very “economically rationalized” industry because market dynamics have forced it in that direction. Additionally, there is internal competition in agriculture. If one industry does not meet consumer demand, there is another one willing to step in.

While farmers have been focusing on competition and farm profitability, the world has been changing, according to Jamison. Animal rights discussions hinge on the human values that society has placed on animals.

Jamison outlined four factors needed in a society for an animal rights movement to rise, including urbanization, anthropomorphism (attributing human qualities to animals), belief in evolution, and a sense of equality. Unless all four factors are present, an animal rights movement does not exist.

Urbanization has made animals go from tools, instruments and commodities to something else. Animals now live in the house as members of the family.

Anthropomorphism is demonstrated through popular movies, children’s books and toys. Prior to the 19th century, when evolution theory placed animals on a more level footing with humans, all belief systems — religious and secular — believed humans were above all other creatures, according to Jamison. Animal rights movements have only taken root in Westernized cultures because of the need to give “equal rights for everything like us,” he said.

“Animal rights does not cause society to change, but changes in society itself give way to animal rights,” Jamison said.

One example of a societal change is how people view their pets. For most, they are members of the family. Jamison showed several news clips depicting the tens of thousands of dollars people were willing to spend in vet costs for their pets. The race horse Barbaro fascinated the public for months on end.

“It is now possible to make more money to do a total hip replacement on a 14-year-old dog then you can in a month as a large animal vet,” Jamison said.

Studies and polls show that the public believes that pet animal rights should be extended to farm animals.

Farmers must be willing to own the entire industry from farm to plate and not present a sanitized view of what happens, according to Jamison. If farmers do not, he believes the economic impacts of animal rights will force animal production to other countries.

Despite all of the challenges, Jamison points to one positive point. No modern society, including India, has eliminated animal production.

Consumers want meat products, but feel guilty for it. Agriculture needs to give consumers permission to eat meat products.

“Consumers want their animal products, but they don’t want to be reminded on how they get their animal products,” he said.



"Jamison outlined four factors needed in a society for an animal rights movement to rise, including urbanization, anthropomorphism (attributing human qualities to animals), belief in evolution, and a sense of equality. Unless all four factors are present, an animal rights movement does not exist."
I always question whether it should be considered "attributing human qualities to animals" or simply that we cease to deny the possibility that these are not human qualities, but animal qualities we all share.

"Consumers want meat products, but feel guilty for it. Agriculture needs to give consumers permission to eat meat products."

This is the crux then. We've got to get people to stop wanting meat products, and prevent the agricultural industry from giving this "permission".

Oracl
03-04-2008, 10:13 PM
Studies and polls show that the public believes that pet animal rights should be extended to farm animals.
This confuses me. :confused: What particular rights do pet animals have that the public wants extended to farmed animals? If they want to continue to own pet animals (dogs and cats in particular) then the farmed animals are always going to exist to provide food for their pets. That removes the most basic right to life for the farmed animals instantly! :rubchin: :D

thevegantwins
03-05-2008, 05:19 AM
"Jamison outlined four factors needed in a society for an animal rights movement to rise, including urbanization, anthropomorphism (attributing human qualities to animals), belief in evolution, and a sense of equality. Unless all four factors are present, an animal rights movement does not exist."
I always question whether it should be considered "attributing human qualities to animals" or simply that we cease to deny the possibility that these are not human qualities, but animal qualities we all share.

I think this is a crucial aspect of this discussion. Most humans do not consider themselves to be animals. We are animals. Watch an infant human who is hungry. They will not be appeased with a computer game, the latest fashions, a 10,000 square foot home etc..-they want to eat. A basic need that needs to be satisfied. All animals have basic needs that must be met in order to be content and I think it is a pretty fair assumption that non-human animals need access to clean air, food and water and freedom in order to have their basic needs met. I see Felíne looking out the window alot and it makes me sad because while she has food and water, she is missing out on of her basic rights, the freedom to go wherever she wants to and to be outside. Of course, I purposely deny her this right for her own safety but I doubt she knows that. I think if all humans start identifying ourselves as animals, we are more likely to find the compassion needed to realize that animals are not here for our pleasure, use or consumption.

Gliondrach
03-05-2008, 06:13 AM
'Jamison outlined four factors needed in a society for an animal rights movement to rise, including urbanization, anthropomorphism (attributing human qualities to animals), belief in evolution, and a sense of equality. Unless all four factors are present, an animal rights movement does not exist.'

No. I would say that there only needs to be a belief that other animals shouldn't be tortured or misused. A realisation that they can suffer and that it is wrong to make them suffer.

' “Animal rights does not cause society to change, but changes in society itself give way to animal rights,” Jamison said.'

I'm not too sure about that one. When black people were slaves they were seen by whites as less than human. Did they get their freedom because white people started to recognise them as human or did they seem to be fully human after they were given their freedom?

Bowwowmeow
03-05-2008, 10:35 AM
I found the article fascinating because I don't think the guy is vegan, and yet his views are quite accurate on several points.
'Jamison outlined four factors needed in a society for an animal rights movement to rise, including urbanization, anthropomorphism (attributing human qualities to animals), belief in evolution, and a sense of equality. Unless all four factors are present, an animal rights movement does not exist.'

No. I would say that there only needs to be a belief that other animals shouldn't be tortured or misused. A realisation that they can suffer and that it is wrong to make them suffer.
But how can this belief arise in large enough numbers of people without all four factors being present? There are folks in Chile, for example, who still do things they way their Incan ancestors did them. Can a person whose very life, and the lives of their families, depends on using llamas daily to help them toil in the fields and carry their stuff to the marketplaces ever decide that animals have the right not to be used for food, wool, transportation, field work, etc?

I can see that it is so much easier for a New Yorker , for example, who is completely free from needing animals in any way at all, whether they know it or not, to begin to consider that maybe animals ought not to be exploited for any reason. In the New Yorker, you are quite likely to have all four qualities present, that the author claims are necessary, for the belief to begin to take root. The belief does not take root with all New Yorkers, obviously, but I cannot see it ever taking root in the thoughts of people like those Chileans, who are not urbanized, probably don't care about evolution, or even equality.

' “Animal rights does not cause society to change, but changes in society itself give way to animal rights,” Jamison said.'

I'm not too sure about that one. When black people were slaves they were seen by whites as less than human. Did they get their freedom because white people started to recognise them as human or did they seem to be fully human after they were given their freedom?
I think that they were seen as human by a significant enough number of people for slavery to have become abolished. There are still plenty of folks today who don't see others who are different from them as fully human, and this isn't limited to white people.

Though I suspect that, since most exploitation follows the sociopathic pattern of
"I want something, I will find a way to get it no matter what it takes or who it hurts, and I will make excuses later that justify my action", the belief that blacks weren't people was developed as a justification after the fact, not as a reason for saying "hey, look, these are animals, so lets do what we want with them!". They knew darn well that those were people, they just tried to convince everyone that they weren't so they could justify and excuse violating their freedom.

Bowwowmeow
03-05-2008, 10:43 AM
This confuses me. :confused: What particular rights do pet animals have that the public wants extended to farmed animals? If they want to continue to own pet animals (dogs and cats in particular) then the farmed animals are always going to exist to provide food for their pets. That removes the most basic right to life for the farmed animals instantly! :rubchin: :D
I think that where the confusion between rights and welfare is giving people the wrong impression. I would say that people want the same welfare enjoyed by pets to be extended to food animals. The author is erroneously using the term "rights" where "welfare" is what he really means, because organizations like the HSUS and PETA think these terms are interchangeable, and that's where most people get their views on animal "rights" from. :rolleyes:

Bowwowmeow
03-05-2008, 10:50 AM
I think this is a crucial aspect of this discussion. Most humans do not consider themselves to be animals. We are animals.
I always wonder at people who don't believe this. The first mammals were just beginning to show up during the age of dinosaurs, hundreds of millions of years before humans developed. If the mammals before us hadn't already developed capacities for the appreciation of a full stomach, a warm shelter, the companionship of fellow herd members, love of mates and offspring, where would humans have gotten these things?

Of course, I don't believe in a god that gave us these things, so I figure they had to come from the animals who were here before us. They don't just spring out of empty air.

Gliondrach
03-05-2008, 10:53 AM
There were people in ancient Greece and in India who realised that other animals should have rights of some sort. They may have been few but they probably came to this conclusion because they recognised that the animals could suffer.

I think it can only arise in large enough numbers when the few who start it manage to convince the many. Urbanisation will help. But urbanisation also leads to the industrialisation of raising and killing the animals. And using them in experiments.

There is something missing in most humans. Until they acquire it in some way they give little thought to the suffering of other species.

Bowwowmeow
03-05-2008, 11:11 AM
There is something missing in most humans. Until they acquire it in some way they give little thought to the suffering of other species.
That is the answer I think. Its the sociopathic mindset I outlined above. We are born to be this way as infants, in order to get our needs met and survive our infancy. Most people fail to help their children develop beyond this stage. Inside the infant's mind, he is the only real person, and everything he encounters outside himself exists only to serve his needs. People who fail, as they grow up, to eventually recognize the "reality" of other humans actually get diagnosed as mentally ill. People who fail to recognize the reality of other animals become your average modern citizen.

It makes no sense.

Gliondrach
03-05-2008, 02:01 PM
I wish I could remember how I changed. I think I used to argue with myself but I'm not sure how the better me won.