B12 Help

[VeganD]

How many of you guys on here think B12 is important

Also how many of you actually take it and if so in what form

I don’t take any at the moment but i think i will start don’t want to take the risk and have problems later on in life

Just want to know what you advise and is there makes brands to buy over another?

Thanks

[my3labs]

I don't take any supplements but I think I eat a pretty well rounded diet.
I'm sure one of the resident experts will be along soon to offer some advice.

[paul]

I just have yeast extract.but some cerals are fortified with B12.

[Enchantress]

In my opinion asking of B12 is important is a bit like asking if oxygen is important. That said I don't worry about my B12 levels as I eat food that has been fortified with it and my body possibly synthesises it's own supply, just as I don't worry about if I'm getting enough oxygen as I know it's in the air I breathe.

[Oracl]

I think humans worry too much about vitamins. :)

However......I went to a vegan nutrition seminar last weekend and the nutrition consultant (a vegan for 23 years with 2 vegan children) said that it is very important to have a reliable source of vitamin B12 in the diet, such as foods that have added vitamin B12 (eg some soymilks and some meat analogues) or a vitamin B12 supplement. She said that if a supplement is taken, it is recommended that the dose is either 10 micrograms per day or 2000 micrograms per week. She said that she had encountered a number of vegans who had ended up with severe health problems from low B12.

So I am making more of an effort to follow that advice! :agree:

[1vegan]

Ok, here comes my strong opion.... :o

I don't take any supplements but I think I eat a pretty well rounded diet.
I'm sure one of the resident experts will be along soon to offer some advice.

BIG mistake imho.
B12 is a bacteria that in our nowadays clean/sterile food can not be found.
There are NO plants/vegetables that contain real b12. Some might contain something that looks like it, but isn't, those are called anologes and can NOT be aborbed by humans.


I just have yeast extract.but some cerals are fortified with B12.

Yeast extract is NOT a reliable source of b12, if it has b12 at all.

B12 shortage is not that uncommon among meat eaters when they get older, and as some have said, the possible effects of a b12 shortage are not worth it to not use a supplement.

I'm at work, so internet is darn slow, I'll possibly post more later.

Read this too : http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

Though the daily amount of b12 is very small, I think it's wise to not rely on fortied foods alone and sensible vegans should take a supplement.

B12 is the only "b-vitamin" that is stored in the body, higher levels of b12 seem beneficial for other things too, so.... my advice is to take a reasonable high dose b12 every day, like 50mcg or more.

I myself take 1000mircrogram tablets, that way I'm sure that if I'd have an absorbtion problem, I still get enough of it.

My3Labs, Paul ; get a reliable source of b12. (please?)

[Bowwowmeow]

...I myself take 1000mircrogram tablets, that way I'm sure that if I'd have an absorbtion problem, I still get enough of it.
Me too. Mine is a sublingual form, which dissolves under the tongue and bypasses the digestive tract altogether. Its also methylcobalamin, which is supposed to be better than cyanocobalamin.

Everyone should worry about their vitamin intake, not just us. Soils are depleted, fruits and vegetables, even organic ones, have fewer nutrient levels than they did 100 years ago, and out atmosphere is loaded with contaminants our grandparents didn't have to contend with.

You also have to consider the special emotional stresses of being a compassionate person in this slaughterhouse world we live in. Stress depletes B vitamins in particular. I know this stress exists for me, even though I don't consciously recognize it on a daily basis. Necrotarians are blessedly free of this particular source of emotional turmoil, since they have no consciences.

I know lots of necrotarians claim the vegan diet isn't natural because there is no source of B12 coming from plants, but I am not the least bit concerned about this. They overlook the fact that there is no natural source for the animals they eat either. The animals they eat get B12 in supplement form too, so what is more natural; taking the supplement yourself, or feeding it to an animal first and then killing him and eating his unnaturally fortified flesh?

Thousands of year ago, when the first people migrated over from Asia and populated the North American continent, they found corn and acorns grew abundantly in various regions. Corn cannot serve as a food for humans as it is, or it will cause certain degenerative deficiency diseases. The natives of the plains found that by processing their corn with lime (the mineral, not the citrus fruit), corn could become a healthy staple in their diets.

The people who settled in oak country also found that acorns could not be used as food without processing the tannins out first. They did this by grinding the nuts into meal, and designing special baskets they could place the meal in, and set them in streams to wash the tannins away. Acorns made up 80% of the diets of many of the California tribes.

Both of these examples are good enough for me to show that there is nothing unnatural about "processing" a plant food to unlock its nutritious potential. I see no difference between leaching the tannins from acorns and using bacteria to ferment B12. So if anyone here is worried about how taking a B12 supplement would look to some stupid necrotarian, please don't! The same goes for the claims against tofu and tempeh as being processed and therefore unnatural foods.

I guess it boils down to whether you trust that food in its natural state is sufficient, and whether you are sure that you have no special circumstances in your life that indicate a higher need for certain nutrients than an "average" healthy person. I won't go into detail here, but I am learning that I have greater requirements for certain nutrients than a person with a different biochemistry, and since vitamins are way cheaper, and more vegan, than drugs, I take them, not just when I have a condition that is corrected by increasing certain nutrient intake, but as insurance.

[my3labs]

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I know lots of necrotarians claim the vegan diet isn't natural because there is no source of B12 coming from plants, but I am not the least bit concerned about this. They overlook the fact that there is no natural source for the animals they eat either. The animals they eat get B12 in supplement form too, so what is more natural; taking the supplement yourself, or feeding it to an animal first and then killing him and eating his unnaturally fortified flesh?

I guess this is where I get lost. I thought that B12 was a gut algae thing and was found naturally in the animal?

So if anyone here is worried about how taking a B12 supplement would look to some stupid necrotarian, please don't!
I have to admit that this is part of the reason I don't take supplements. I hate the fact that they (necrotarians) have any kind of ammo against us.

I'm certainly open to learning more about it...maybe I've been an ignorant vegan by not being as educated as I should but most of the time it's so overwhelming just trying to defend myself, protect the innocent, and just living life...

[Bowwowmeow]

I guess this is where I get lost. I thought that B12 was a gut algae thing and was found naturally in the animal?
In wild animals, yes. That's why people sell wild or free range, grass fed animal flesh for such amazingly high prices.

Animals raised for slaughter in feedlots, which is where most people get their flesh from, are still fed carcass, manure, and the cheapest, poorest-quality grain available. It is unfortunately much cheaper, and therefore better for profit margins, to actually feed animals slaughterhouse waste, antibiotics, and hormones than it is to feed them high quality, nutritious food. Cattle are no longer fed the remains of other cattle, on account of mad cow disease, but they do get fed the slaughterhouse remains of pigs, sheep, chickens, and vice versa.

Wild herbivores have natural B12 producing bacteria in their small intestines, which they get from eating the soil that clings to the roots of the plants they eat. We would too, if our parents weren't too cautious about letting us put our dirty fingers in our mouths when we were babies. Todays trend toward super hygiene makes it pretty unlikely that Western children are getting this natural inoculation. Add the tendency for pediatricians to prescribe antibiotics every time a parent brings an ailing child to the office, and it pretty much guarantees that modern people have no bacteria in their guts that will produce B12 for them. This goes for all people, not just vegans. I've read tons of natural health books, none of which were written by vegan nutritionists or doctors, and they all stress the importance of B12 supplementation for people who eat the standard American diet.

So yeah, its kind of a pain to have to explain this to ignorant necrotarians, but its worth being armed with good info to counter their "its not natural to have to take a supplement" argument. They aren't getting any natural B12 either, unless they are slaughtering wild animals themselves and eating the contents of their small intestines while they are still fresh and steaming, which is where wild carnivores get their B12 from.

When you pay attention, you'll notice that thousands of manufactured food items are fortified with B12, and most of these are not only not manufactured for vegans, they aren't even suitable for them. What's that all about then, if the omnivorous diet is so natural?

[Gliondrach]

Human omnivores are very unnatural. True omnivores run down and start to eat their prey whilst it is still warm. Others find dead animals and eat them. These will have begun to decay and will probably have maggots in them. Lovely.

As BWM alluded to, farm animals have to be given supplements. This is because many soils have too little cobalt in them. The gut bacteria need cobalt to make B12.

As it says on an animal feed site:

======================

Cobalt is essential for the production of vitamin B12 which has one atom of cobalt at its centre. In ruminants vitamin B12 is synthesised by gut bacteria but only if cobalt is available for this production.

Vitamin B12 is essential in the synthesis of proteins and for the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates and therefore has an effect on cells for normal functions and on the growth and division of cells.

In ruminants B12 is essential in the conversion of the rumen volatile fatty acid, propionic acid, into glucose. A deficiency of B12 can thus cut this important metabolic pathway for getting energy to cells. Ruminants rely on the conversion of propionic acid to glucose for 70% of their energy requirements.

Under deficient conditions, calves and lambs appear to grow normally for a few months as they draw on stored B12 , but soon exhibit gradual loss of appetite and failure to grow, followed by anaemia, rapid weight loss and finally death. In lambs the first signs often appear soon after weaning.

Marginally deficient pastures can result in the birth of weak lambs and calves that are slow to get going and which don’t survive long.

Supplementation
Whilst short term treatment can take the form of a vitamin B12 injection, in the longer term the best solution is to provide supplemental cobalt to the rumen where the bacteria can use it to manufacture B12. The bacteria manufacture B12 on a continuous basis so it makes sense to provide them with cobalt on the same basis.

======================

[1vegan]

I guess this is where I get lost. I thought that B12 was a gut algae thing and was found naturally in the animal?


B12 is technically a bacteria and it seems some people have it or can produce it in their intestins. How ever it seems most people don't produce it themselves and have to get it from food sources.

Animals contain b12 because they do get the bacteria with their feed which isn't as sterilized as ours (grass/hay, etc)
And even a lot of animals get b12 fortified fudder nowadays too.

I don't know how long you've been vegan, you can have b12 in your body that might supply you for a few years, but it depends a lot on personal circumstances how long that period will be.

Maybe it's good to have your b12 checked and it's sure wise to start taking a b12 supplement on a regular basis :agree:

[my3labs]

Thanks for the clarification everyone. I'll look into it some more.
1V, I've been vegan for 2 1/2 years.

[my3labs]

1V and BWM; are you taking the 1000 mcg's weekly?

[Bowwowmeow]

My bottle says to take one tablet under the tongue 4 to 7 times weekly. I take one every day. I'm not worried about toxicity. Most researchers don't know what the optimum requirements are for people anyway, and I think it was Linus Pauling who called the RDAs "the minimum amounts to keep an average person barely alive" or something along those lines.

[1vegan]

1V and BWM; are you taking the 1000 mcg's weekly?

I take 1 or 2 of the nuggets (as solgar calls the tablets) Daily

This is because the vegan society says "2000 µgs of B12 consumed once a week would also provide an adequate intake"

And I don't always take my b12, and I sure don't want to be short of it.

Sometimes I take one (they are sweet) in the morning and one with dinner.

Doing this a few times per week, I'm sure I have enough b12 for daily usage, plus that the rest will be stored in my body. Therefore I don't have to worry if I don't take b12 for a few days (or weeks)

A bottle of 100 nuggets is about 20 USD for me, and on average it lasts four months for me.

As far as I know, there's not such a thing as a harmfull over dose or too high level of B12. In fact (but I'm no doctor) elevated/higher levels of b12 seem to have a positive influence on other things (homocysteine levels is one).

People who are omnivore and stop consuming products with b12 in it, can have enough b12 stored in their body to last 2 to 5 years, they say, but it depends on your body and circumstances.

[Bowwowmeow]

That's true. I keep forgetting to mention that B12 is stored in the liver, so that you won't experience symptoms of deficiency for up to several years after total cessation of dietary intake. But it would be hard to completely eliminate B12 from your diet, unless you gave up all fortified foods. Even certain brands of carbonated juice drinks have B12 added.

[1vegan]

I try to avoid drinks with artificially added vitamins, as it seems that sometimes these added vitamins make use of some kind of fish ingredient to keep them stable in the bottle.

[Gliondrach]

I keep forgetting to mention that B12 is stored in the liver.

I store mine in a kitchen cupboard.

[my3labs]

I store mine in a kitchen cupboard.

:rofl:

I started taking B12 as a precautionary measure a few months ago and got some wicked headaches so I stopped. I took 500 mcg's tonight with dinner so we'll see if the headaches come back.

[Bowwowmeow]

I think dreamer mentioned getting headaches from vitamin B supplements. I've never noticed it in myself, and I used to be very prone to headaches until I realized I had a systemic candida overgrowth. That was last year, and I've only had about two or three headaches since.

I've read that too much choline can cause a headache (that's one of the B vitamin family) but I've never read about any of the others causing them. I wonder if its one of the ingredients used as a filler instead? I'll have to see if I can find any info on vitamin B and headaches.

[thevegantwins]

I thought dreamer had mentioned somewhere that B12 could help alleviate headaches. How confusing. I never had a problem with headaches and B12. Every so often, I pop 1000mg and my daily vitamin, VegLife multi contains B12.

[1vegan]

I can't find it anymore but thought to have read somewhere that too much B vitamins from a supplement could be bad for something?

I get my normal B vitamins from the veggies and lately also use marmite on bread.

[dreamer]

I have read a few places that B2 and B12 help with migraine headaches. But I did also say that I got headaches when I took a sublingual B12 tablet that had like 500 mcg. I haven't gotten any headaches from taking it though since I started quartering it, only when I took the whole tablet at once...so now I just take 1/4 a tablet a day or every other day. [I've been doing it since my gastritis was diagnosed in case it was due to not having enough B12.]

BWM, the kind I take has the following ingredients: 500 mcg B12; cellulose, sorbitol, croscarmellose sodium, magnesium stearate, silica, cherry flavor, cyanocobalamin, and malic acid. I think sorbitol might be to blame, though it seems like a tiny amount.

Most B vitamins are water soluble, which means you would usually just "pee out" the excess (generally, but you can probably overdose if you overdo it). B12 (as already mentioned) is stored to some degree. Probably most vegans would get enough of all the B vitamins from food except for B12, as most vegan food does not have a reliable source of B12. (Some exceptions have already been noted, such as some brands of nutritional yeast.) I've also read that some of the bacteria in our lower intestines do create B12, but they think it's too far down in the intestines to be absorbed/useful. There are also medications (such as proton pump inhibitors--which I'm on) that can sometimes cause B12 anemia, as the acid reduction may also reduce intrinsic factor production.

[1vegan]

as most vegan food does not have a reliable source of B12. (Some exceptions have already been noted, such as some brands of nutritional yeast.)


http://www.ivu.org/faq/specialities.html

Ms. Carlyee Hammer at Universal Products (the parent company of Red Star, 414-935-3910) indicates that ONLY ONE variety of Red Star nutritional yeast (product number T-6635+) is fortified with B12 at the level of 8 ug/g.

Ms. Carlyee also claimed that other varieties of "nutritional" yeast contain vitamin B12 at less than 1 ug/g, but was unaware whether this was determined by microbial assay or not. Microbial assays for vitamin B12 are no longer considered reliable due to problems with the cross-reactivity of corrinoids


In my view, people should NOT see nutritional yeast as a (reliable) source of B12.

[dreamer]

That's why I said some nutritional yeast, not all of them have B12. I also found this: http://www.ivu.org/faq/vitaminb12.html

[Gliondrach]

Some B12 links here. I haven't looked at them yet.

No need to add the ww w. and h tt p:// - at least not with Good Search.

chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/vitaminb12/links.html

[Gliondrach]

I wonder why this was partly funded by the National Cattlemen's Association and the National Fisheries Institute? It could still be accurate as they only call for a doubling or tripling of the current recommended amount of B12.

'Conclusion: In persons with normal absorption, our data indicate that an intake of 4–7 micro g vitamin B-12/d is associated with an adequate vitamin B-12 status, which suggests that the current RDA of 2.4 micro g vitamin B-12/d might be inadequate for optimal biomarker status even in a healthy population between 18 and 50 y of age.'



American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 91: 571-577, 2010. First published January 13, 2010

Daily intake of 4 to 7 micro grams dietary vitamin B-12 is associated with steady concentrations of vitamin B-12–related biomarkers in a healthy young population

Mustafa Vakur Bor, Kristina M von Castel-Roberts, Gail PA Kauwell, Sally P Stabler, Robert H Allen, David R Maneval, Lynn B Bailey and Ebba Nexo

Supported by USDA grant USDA-NRI 00-35009102, the National Cattlemen's Association grant program no. 402.2, the National Fisheries Institute, The Danish Medical Research Council, The Lundbeck Foundation, and the Novo-Nordisk Foundation.

Background: Studies have questioned whether the current Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of 2.4 micro g vitamin B-12/d is adequate.

Objective: We examined the association between dietary vitamin B-12 intake and biomarkers of vitamin B-12 status.

Design: Dietary vitamin B-12 intake was estimated, and biomarkers of vitamin B-12 status were measured, in healthy men and women (n = 299; age range: 18–50 y) who were recruited from a Florida community. The National Cancer Institute Diet History Questionnaire was used. Plasma cobalamin, total transcobalamin, holo-transcobalamin, methylmalonic acid (MMA), total homocysteine (tHcy), and autoantibodies against intrinsic factor (IF) and Helicobacter pylori were analyzed in blood samples.

Results: Antibodies to H. pylori were detected in 12% of subjects (35/299), and negative results for IF antibodies were obtained for all subjects. The intake of vitamin B-12 correlated significantly with cobalamin, holo-transcobalamin, MMA, and tHcy. Subjects were divided into quintiles on the basis of their dietary vitamin B-12 intake (range: 0.42–22.7 micro g/d), and biomarkers of vitamin B-12 status were plotted against estimated dietary vitamin B-12 intake. All biomarkers appeared to level off at a daily dietary vitamin B-12 intake between 4.2 and 7.0 micor g.

Conclusion: In persons with normal absorption, our data indicate that an intake of 4–7 micro g vitamin B-12/d is associated with an adequate vitamin B-12 status, which suggests that the current RDA of 2.4 micro g vitamin B-12/d might be inadequate for optimal biomarker status even in a healthy population between 18 and 50 y of age.

[Gliondrach]

I wonder if this algae product could be a good source?

International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research. 2009 Mar;79(2):117-23.

Effect of a Klamath algae product ("AFA-B12") on blood levels of vitamin B12 and homocysteine in vegan subjects: a pilot study.

Baroni L, Scoglio S, Benedetti S, Bonetto C, Pagliarani S, Benedetti Y, Rocchi M, Canestrari F.

Department of Neurorehabilitation, Villa Salus Hospital, Mestre-Venice, Italy.

Abstract
Vitamin B12 is a critical nutrient that is often inadequate in a plant-based (vegan) diet, thus the inclusion of a reliable vitamin B12 source in a vegan diet is recommended as essential. Unfortunately, many natural sources of vitamin B12 have been proven to contain biologically inactive vitamin B12 analogues, inadequate for human supplementation. The aim of this non-randomized open trial was to determine whether supplementation with a natural Klamath algae-based product ("AFA-B12", Aphanizomenon flos-aquae algae plus a proprietary mix of enzymes) could favorably affect the vitamin B12 status of a group of 15 vegan subjects. By assessing blood concentration of vitamin B12, folate, and more importantly homocysteine (Hcy, a reliable marker in vegans of their B12 absorption), the vitamin B12 status of the participants at the end of the 3-month intervention period, while receiving the Klamath-algae supplement (T2), was compared with their vitamin B12 status at the end of the 3-month control period (T1), when they were not receiving any supplement, having stopped taking their usual vitamin B12 supplement at the beginning of the study (T0). Compared to the control period, in the intervention period participants improved their vitamin B12 status, significantly reducing Hcy blood concentration (p=0.003). In conclusion, the Klamath algae product AFA-B12 appears to be, in a preliminary study, an adequate and reliable source of vitamin B12 in humans.
PMID: 20108213

[mole]

I take a daily multi that contains B12 at about 20X the daily recommended. I have been told we can only absorb about 5-10% of the B12 from vitamin or fortified sources as our digestive process typically destroys much of what we take in.

I also use an under the tongue tablet 2-3 times a week that is a very high dose. I am told this is the best way to take B12 as it is absorbed and not destroyed through the digestive process as readily.

I did also read that your body stores B12 and it does take years to create a deficiency.

I tend to stay away from foods fortified with anything as they also tend to be lower in overall nutritional value and higher in calorie content (low nutrient density).

I am concerned with making sure I get enough of certain vitamins overall, that is why I do take a daily multi raw vegan based vitamin and eat a wide variety of foods.

[Gliondrach]

I think everyone following any type of diet should take a multi vitamin and mineral tablet as modern fruits and vegetables (the commercially available ones at least) have lower levels of nutrients compared to the food of a hundred years ago.

[mole]

I think everyone following any type of diet should take a multi vitamin and mineral tablet as modern fruits and vegetables (the commercially available ones at least) have lower levels of nutrients compared to the food of a hundred years ago.

Very good point G.

[Blueshark]

I think most soya milks these day contain all the B12 a body needs!