Soy Bad ?

[VeganD]

You just do not know what to believe there is so much crap floating around on the net about this that and the other

Now I have some kind of soy everyday most of my vegan food has soy in it and I also have a lot of tofu sandwiches

Now if you do a search many sites say soy is bad for us but then there are also a lot of sites saying it’s good for us

At the end of the day it makes no difference who it comes from there is nothing showing it’s good or bad for us

As much as I hate to say it but people can eat animals all their life and still be very healthy I think at the end of the day what affects one might not affect another

People who go out there kill the animals in the woods bring it back cook it and eat it I don’t know what to say too these people because the argument I use is all animal products in the supermarket is processed muck and pumped with all kinds of unnatural drugs but when they kill an animal that has been living naturally in the woods then it could be difficult to argue with this?

Remember all this information is just passed down from person to person it only takes one person to be wrong along the way so that’s why I am not interested in what a dietician has to say you can go to one and they will tell you soy is very good for you go to another and their tell you its bad for you

I watched a program last night about the human body and the human body is so hugely complex

Just like the whole B12 thing i have read many places saying vegans lack this and its bad for us if we don’t get it we can damage our nerve system and cause a B12 deficiency i am sure i can find someone who has no B12 and are living without problems and will outlive others who take vitamins there is no proven fact on any of this stuff

Just think about it everything we know has been taken from books and information obtained from other people like i said its just 2nd hand information like everything who knows if any of it is accurate

[Bowwowmeow]

...As much as I hate to say it but people can eat animals all their life and still be very healthy I think at the end of the day what affects one might not affect another ...
This is true. I love peanuts, and can eat tons of them. But my dog Daisy, after 6 years of sharing a peanut or two with me whenever I ate some, developed a serious anaphylactic shock reaction to them, so she can't have them anymore.

We are all different. We all have different biological weaknesses, and what's harmless for one may not be for another. And unfortunately, no one can predict what may or may not be good for you, VeganD. You've got to figure it out on your own, through trial and error. Its good to read widely on the subject, and consider both sides of a debate on soy or any other food or nutrient.

But when people say that folks can be healthy all their lives eating animals, I know they are not taking into account quality of life, longevity, and causes of death. People are, unfortunately, adaptable enough to eat corpse and survive long enough to reproduce themselves which is all evolution cares about. But then so can cattle on factory farms who are also fed the corpses of other animals. It doesn't make them healthy, it just keeps them alive long enough to serve their "purpose".

The number one cause of death here in the USA is still heart disease, the obituaries are still full of people dying in their fifties and sixties of heart disease and cancer, and most of the people I see look twenty years older than their true age. People say lifespans are increasing, but this is not exactly true, as they use the fact that infant mortality rates are lower in their statistical analyses of longevity, and this is deceptive. So I'm not entirely convinced that corpse eaters are healthy. After all, most people are so ill with one thing or another they don't know what true health feels like. And with the subconscious burden of living off the deaths of others, they can never know the real feeling of well being experienced by vegans who live off plants only.

What we think and feel are as important to our physical wellness as what we eat, and corpse eaters have nothing to feel good about, especially the ones who do their own killing and butchering. My belief is that this harms the psyche even more than buying corpse from the market. I'm not excusing folks who buy corpse from the market. But the actual act of killing someone is a pretty big mental and emotional burden, added to the huge burden already borne by those who eat the corpse but get someone else to do the killing. The fact that these folks are largely unaware of bearing these burdens does not mitigate the consequences to their minds and souls. And if there are negative consequences to their minds and souls, these will be experienced by their bodies too.

[Charmagne]

I truly believe the 'soy is bad for you thing' comes from the dairy industry. They and their stockholders will say or do anything they can to convince people soy is unhealthy when it definately contains less animal fat than milk. If the life span is increasing it is because of the drugs dispensed to keep people alive. My father is 76 and is on EIGHT prescription drugs. Without them, being a huge carnivore all his life, he would definately not be here now. Some of the drugs he takes are the direct result of eating animal flesh. His cholesterol, without his medication, is uncontrollable. His blood pressure, again without his medication, is also uncontrollable. His diabetes - and so on. He's had two knee replacements and cannot walk far without sitting down. To me this comes down to quality of life. I don't think I would want to live if everything I had was artificial and without many medications my life would be over anyway.

[VeganD]

Thank you very good post there Bowwowmeow

Sorry to hear about your dog Daisy

As you said it’s about trial and error I guess its good to have a well balanced diet with lots of fruit and vegetables

Its like when you see someone live to say 100 you get people asking what’s their secret i think what secret there is no secret

Just think I could follow that persons diet bit by bit down to the last gram of food and only live half the age they did that would prove that what worked for that person didn’t work for me

It really annoys me when you have professionals i.e. dieticians where one will tell you that a certain food is really good for you and your get another one saying something completely different

[VeganD]

Charmagne

Sorry to hear about your father hope he gets better

Yes it’s possible that this did originate from the dairy industry i have no idea

But i do eat a lot of tofu and again it is processed so who knows if its good or bad i guess the key is also moderation

[Bowwowmeow]

I'm sorry about your Dad too Charmagne. But that's another thing I forgot. You aren't healthy if you are on prescription meds, or even if you habitually use over the counter stuff. And who in America's got an empty medicine cabinet (except me)? Its the worst kind of Catch 22; we test drugs on animals to treat the diseases we get from eating them. If we weren't eating them, we wouldn't need the drugs. If we weren't feeding babies cow milk, they wouldn't get insulin-dependent diabetes. It makes no sense.

[Oracl]

I use soy products but I am always conscious that they are processed foods so I use them in moderation. I think the healthiest foods are the unprocessed foods such as fruits and vegetables etc. :yum:

Just my two cents. (Where's that smilie when I need it? :tantrum:)

[Gliondrach]

Fermented soya in moderation is healthy.

I drink nearly a pint of soya milk a day in my tea, The milk is highly processed. I have been doing this for perhaps 20 years.

Yes, it is true that a lot of the anti-soya propaganda comes from those who have vested interests. Just like the drug companies try to persuade that herbal medicines are dangerous or useless.

[Oracl]

I drink nearly a pint of soya milk a day in my tea
In each cup? :confused: Wouldn't that make it cold and quite disgusting? :blecch:

[Gliondrach]

No, in total - spread over 8 or 9 cups. When I say 'spread' I don't mean spread like margarine. I put some in each cup. This totals about a pint. When I say that I put some in each cup, I don't mean that I use lots of cups. I only have one but I have lots of cups of tea in that one cup. Not all at the same time, though.

[Oracl]

Oh, now I understand. :agree: ;)

[Bowwowmeow]

I don't. Why does anyone have to go spoiling a good cup of tea with all that sweet creamy stuff?
:teakettle2: :teacup: :earlgreytea:

[Oracl]

That's the way the Brits drink tea! :agree: If you ask for a cup of tea anywhere in the UK you have to be sure to say no milk or sugar or it arrives ready spoilt! ;)

[VeganD]

dont do tea or any of that cold drink does me fine thats all iv had for years

[Gliondrach]

Who said anything about sugar or sweetened soya milk. I use unsweetened.

[soozthecat]

Who said anything about sugar or sweetened soya milk. I use unsweetened.

Yeah whats wrong with these people who use sweetened soya milk and then put sugar in AS WELL!!!! :shakehead:

[paul]

That's the way the Brits drink tea! :agree: If you ask for a cup of tea anywhere in the UK you have to be sure to say no milk or sugar or it arrives ready spoilt! ;)

not if you come around mine:wigglebutt:
you dont get tea:wigglebutt::wigglebutt:

[Phoenix]

I drink nearly a pint of soya milk a day in my tea ...

In each cup? :confused: Wouldn't that make it cold and quite disgusting? :blecch:

No, in total - spread over 8 or 9 cups. When I say 'spread' I don't mean spread like margarine. I put some in each cup. This totals about a pint. When I say that I put some in each cup, I don't mean that I use lots of cups. I only have one but I have lots of cups of tea in that one cup. Not all at the same time, though.
:uhuh: :D :rofl:

[Gliondrach]

Some interesting things about soya from Testosterone Nation. It makes a change from the usual rubbish they spout over there about soya.

Here are parts of a long article:



Finally, soybeans contain a mix of slow-digesting carbohydrates. With fiber and other starches that may be good for promoting the growth of healthy bacteria in the gut, soy could be considered gastrointestinal-friendly (assuming no soy maldigestion or allergy).

But Doesn't Soy Decrease Testosterone?

At this point, we want to dig into some interesting research.

Specifically, let's take a look at a three-month study looking at the effects of different protein types on body composition during a strength training program.

In this study, the researchers provided daily supplements containing 50 grams of a variety of proteins — either soy concentrate, soy isolate, a soy isolate/whey blend, or a whey blend.

Twenty participants added these supplements, in conjunction with a resistance training program. At the end of the three months, a significant increase in muscle mass was noticed with all of the protein supplemented groups. Interestingly, no significant differences were found among Testosterone, body fat, or body weight between the groups.

In the end, the authors concluded that 12 weeks of soy protein supplementation (50 grams per day) was as effective as the other protein types when it comes to boosting muscle mass during a strength training program.

Interestingly, as some people have suggested, soy supplementation doesn't seem to decrease Testosterone or limit lean body mass gains. It's important to note that similar studies have been done using soy-containing supplemental nutrition bars, and the results have been consistent.

In another study using rats and endurance exercise, the authors concluded that protein synthesis was comparable between rats fed different protein-containing meals after exercise — including soy.

In yet another study, researchers found that elite gymnasts supplementing with soy protein (1 g/kg) for four months, saw favorable changes in their stress responses to training (when compared to the gymnasts not using any supplemental protein at all).

Finally, a Romanian study using Olympic athletes supplemented participants with soy protein (1.5 g/kg) for eight weeks. In the end, the authors found that the soy protein supplementation led to increased body mass (approximately 3 kg, mostly from lean body mass) and strength indexes. Significant decreases of fatigue were found after training sessions. No negative side effects or abnormal changes to metabolism were noticed and the product was well tolerated.

What About Those Phytoestrogens?

Many exercisers and athletes are concerned that the phytoestrogens (estrogen-like nutrients, such as isoflavones) in soy might be harmful to their health, hormonal profile, and body composition. Well, before discussing this very "applied" issue, let's look at what phytoestrogens really are.

Phytoestrogens (we'll call them "PE's" from now on) are a group of natural estrogen receptor modulators found in various foods, with soy being the predominant source. In plants, these PE's serve as a defense mechanism and natural fungicide.

When soy protein isolates and concentrates are created from soybeans, PE (and phytonutrient) content is diminished due to the alcohol used in extraction. So, many of the PE's are naturally removed during the extraction process. However, some do remain.

The PE's found in soy foods include genistein, daidzein, and glycitein. These PE's are similar in structure to the estrogen hormone, estradiol. As a result, PE's have both weak estrogen-stimulating (estrogenic) and an estrogen-inhibiting (anti-estrogenic) effects, depending on the circumstance.


When someone swallows a mouthful of soy, the PE's are modified by intestinal bacteria and taken up into the blood. Once in the blood, these chemicals can weakly attach to the body's estrogen receptors. The body recognizes this binding of its estrogen receptors as a signal to produce less of its own estrogen.

That's one way that soy can actually lowerestrogen production.

Another potential mechanism of PE action in the body is the alteration of circulating estrogen and Testosterone concentrations. These can be altered by the PE's attaching to sex-hormone binding proteins found in the blood.

The UK Committee on Toxicity (2003) noted that PE's bind weakly to the sex-hormone binding proteins and are unlikely to prevent estrogen or androgen binding at normal blood levels.

However, when consumed in high doses, PE's could potentially act as anti-estrogens at the cellular level by competitively binding to estrogen receptors, thus preventing the binding of estrogens that were produced within the body. However, by binding to sex-hormone binding proteins, these PE's could displace estrogens from their blood-bound carriers and free them up to provoke stronger estrogen action in the body.

So, as usual when it comes to biochemistry, there's no clear cut explanation for determining how PE's will function in the body. The actual effects depend on total amount of PE's in the body, receptor binding affinities, and probably a host of genetic factors.

Okay, now that we have some idea (a murky one, at that) of how PE's work in the body, let's look at what the research says regarding how PE's might affect our hormonal action.

One study demonstrated that rats with a high exposure to PE's from soy (20 mg/kg and greater) had lower Testosterone levels. Now, here's the important differentiation point. In the lower dose groups, there were no significant changes to Testosterone (more on this below).

Further, other studies are mixed, showing no change in Testosterone levels, lower Testosterone levels, or with a down regulation of estrogen receptors with high PE's in the blood.

In the end, despite these mixed results and a lack of consensus, there's a common theme: Extremely high levels of PE's have an unfavorable influence on hormone levels, especially when it comes to hormonal status, as well as building muscle and staying lean. However, lower levels don't seem to be problematic.



From Rat to Real Life (DON'T FORGET - RATS ARE NOT HUMAN AND CAN'T BE USED AS MODELS FOR HUMANS)

Before we go on, let's do something very important — something many authors fail to do. Let's put these rat studies into a real life perspective.

We'll start by looking at an adult male who weighs 190 pounds (86 kg). If he were to consume 20 mg/kg of PE's like the initial rat study indicated, that'd be 86 kg x 20 mg, leading to a total of 1,720 mg of PE's per day.

Do you have any idea how much soy that'd be?!

If not, have a look at the following table. It gives you an idea of the amount of PE's found in soy foods.

As you can see from the table, our hypothetical male is very, very unlikely to consume 1,720 mg of PE's from food.

Check out the following menu:

1 cup of cooked soybeans = 94 mg
6 ounces of tempeh = 74 mg
2 cups of soy milk = 60 mg
6 ounces of tofu = 40 mg
2 soy hot dogs = 22 mg
4 oz of soy cheese = 8 mg

Total = 298 mg

Soy overload, for sure, right?

Yet, it only supplies 289 mg of PE's. That's one-fifth of what might be required to lower Testosterone levels.

So, let's get real here. It's unlikely that Testosterone problems would occur if someone were to eat a moderate amount of whole-food soy products.

A more traditional daily intake of soy for someone may look more like this:

8 ounces of tofu = 53 mg
1/2 cup soy milk = 15 mg
1/2 cup edamame = 12 mg

Total = 80 mg of PE's

No More Rats: Humans and Phytoestrogens

Taking it to human studies, data on patients with prostate cancer showed that the intake of 80 mg/day of PE's didn't significantly alter Testosterone levels.

To go one step further, an intake of PE's up to 16 mg/kg of body weight had no significant influence on behavior or physical characteristics.

Taking the dose up again, another study found that 84 straight days of consuming 450 to 900 mg/day of PE's lowered DHEA levels and had estrogenic side effects in males with prostate cancer. Not necessarily good. However, skim over the chart above to determine how much soy food that'd be. It's a freakin' lot!

ht tp://ww w.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/soy_whats_the_big_deal&cr=