Questions of faith.

[Brandy]

The thread that Bowwowmeow started on atheism is fascinating, and it brought to mind a few questions. :rubchin:

These questions are put forward with the greatest respect; however, before I get to them, I need to explain that even though first and foremost I am asking because I’m genuinely interested in you folks, there is also a degree of ‘professional’ interest because, as a writer, it helps if I can understand what makes people tick. So it would be wonderful if you are willing to answer these questions, (either here or in a PM).

Given that most people tend to follow the religion they were raised with – since that is how religions prosper – what religious tradition to you adhere to?

For the atheists, were you raised without religious teachings? Or did you move away from the religious traditions you were taught as a kid? Since the belief in one or more deities is common on this planet, why / how did you come to the beliefs you now have?

Do the religious people attend church / temple / mosque / other place of worship regularly? Only on special occasions (Christmas / Easter / Passover / Ramadan / solstice / other)?

For an atheist, is it more a matter of a belief in science, or a lack of belief in God? Or is it something else entirely?

If a particular religion is important to you, do you believe that your faith is the only ‘real’ faith? Do you follow your faith’s teachings without questioning them?

Does being an atheist preclude a belief in angels (guardian or otherwise) or other ‘supernatural’ beings? What about reincarnation? The existence of the soul?

What do you – atheist, devoutly religious, or in between – believe about fairies and other ‘mythical’ creatures? (Elves, gnomes, mermaids, dragons, yetis, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster etc.)

[Bowwowmeow]

Given that most people tend to follow the religion they were raised with – since that is how religions prosper – what religious tradition to you adhere to? My Dad's folks were very staunch Christian Scientists, and raised him to be, though he is now an atheist. My Mom's family were not religious, but did believe in God. My parents raised us in Christian Science, which is why I've never been to a doctor since I was born, except for the emergency room a few years back when I nearly poked out my right eye. If you don't know what Christian Science is, it is a small movement which demands that its followers rely upon God for all healing.

I was very serious in my childhood, and made quite a study of it. My Pa was always "First Reader" which is like a pastor, or a priest, or a reverend, I guess, and he was a practitioner as well, which meant he gave healings. He healed me of chicken pox; the scabs were gone in three days, as opposed to weeks with other kids. My parents didn't go to church, but whenever we visited my grandparents, we always went with them. I enjoyed it very much. I really wanted to believe in something, I guess.

For the atheists, were you raised without religious teachings? Or did you move away from the religious traditions you were taught as a kid? Since the belief in one or more deities is common on this planet, why / how did you come to the beliefs you now have? I moved away from the religious teachings of my childhood. It occurred to me one day that Jesus and Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) were people just like me, and if they could make spiritual discoveries, then so could I. I didn't disrespect them, I simply found respect for my own ability to draw conclusions about the nature of Life that were as valid as anyone else's.

Also, my Pa, though a very devout member of his church, was a very critical thinker. He constantly found inconsistencies in both the Bible and Science and Health (Mary Baker Eddy's religious writings), and I took them further than he was willing to. I saw him exert lots of mental effort to reconcile what he read with his own sense of logic, and to me, it was easier to decide that there really is no God, in terms of a conscious, intelligent force guiding Creation. He was able to cling to faith, even though he always said that what healed people was not what they believed in, but the fact that they believed in something that would heal them. He often said that if there was a religion based on worshipping a black dog's butt, people who believed in the power of the black dog's butt to heal them would be healed, not by the black dog's butt, but by their faith in it. In spite of his admission that it is faith that heals, he did feel that Christian Science had shown him the path he thought was best, and he maintained his faith in it. I found that I could not.

For an atheist, is it more a matter of a belief in science, or a lack of belief in God? Or is it something else entirely? My mind remains open, but I have yet to come across any phenomenon that can be just as easily and logically explained by science as it can by belief in a divine Creator. I am by no means a strict materialist, but I do not like the way the world works, and if there is someone in charge, his "mysterious ways" are a little too mysterious for me. I cannot accept that a world so filled with the unprovoked and needless suffering of the innocent is run by a benevolent Creator, and if there is someone in charge, he is a sadistic psychotic, and if I am wrong in my atheism, all I want when I die is one chance to aim a good swift kick at his sorry ass before I get shot off to Hell, which, in my opinion, can't be much worse than the world I'm living in right now.

I know people say that everything that comes to us is supposed to be a lesson, and that nothing comes our way that we cannot handle, and that works fine if the only suffering you consider is human suffering. I can find NO merit in this philosophy when applied to debeaked hens, veal calves with their legs broken, hogs hanging by their legs with their throats cut, . . . you get the picture. What lesson is a milk cow supposed to learn when her baby is taken from her and her milk stolen by people? Is the fox really being given no more than he can handle when the hounds bear down on him and tear him to pieces for the joy and entertainment of brutal human sadists? Sorry for the bitter rant, but I include everything when I think of Creation, not just the people, and these things cannot make sense to anyone, in my humble opinion.
I don't really believe there is anyone in charge of Creation, but on the off chance there is, he's not worth my worship.

If a particular religion is important to you, do you believe that your faith is the only ‘real’ faith? Do you follow your faith’s teachings without questioning them? I did question by beliefs when I was religious, and I never once thought that there could be only one right path to spiritual knowledge. In spite of my atheism, I consider myself a very spiritual person. I don't feel that any of the religions available will give me the answers I still seek, but there's a little bit of good in all of them. I don't rely exclusively on science, either. The world is way too complicated for us to ever find all the answers, especially if we limit ourselves to only one "tool".

Does being an atheist preclude a belief in angels (guardian or otherwise) or other ‘supernatural’ beings? What about reincarnation? The existence of the soul? If there is a body of thought labelled "atheism", I suspect it might require that its followers refuse to believe in such things. I call myself an atheist because I do not believe there is a single, intelligent, conscious entity who created the world for a reason. I do not deny that there is more to existence than meets the eye. I don't think that everything we experience that is outside our five physical senses is a product of imagination, either. I trust my sense of intuition, and though I have a strong belief that much of what may be called "psychic" or "paranormal" ability is simply a remnant of the instincts we had when we were "wild" animals, I won't discount what can't be explained scientifically.

I had an experience in which I was apparently about to be attacked by a stranger when I was walking along the outskirts of a big park in SF, one my grandparents told me never to enter alone. I have always had that sense of being stared at, and I got that feeling that afternoon. I looked instantly at the person who had been stalking me behind the bushes, and he was too slow to duck before I saw him. I never heard him, smelled him, or saw him, before I sensed with my mind that he was there, and turned to look and find he was. Was that a guardian angel telling me I was in danger, or the remnant of an old instinct that enabled my ancestors to survive being hunted and killed by predators, an ability that I was able to inherit because it allowed them, and their successive generations, to survive and thus pass it along? Who knows? I am willing to believe in any possibility until someone proves what it is to my satisfaction.

What do you – atheist, devoutly religious, or in between – believe about fairies and other ‘mythical’ creatures? (Elves, gnomes, mermaids, dragons, yetis, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster etc.) I think lots of "myths" may have seeds of truth behind them. There is no reason not to suspect that there may be surviving members of long thought to be extinct species. That's the science behind serious attempts to explain things like Nessie and Sasquatch. People used to think the sea was full of "monsters" until science revealed the existence of elusive creatures like the giant squid. I like to be rational whenver possible, but I also think living in a world without Santa Claus, tree spirits, animal totems, Abominable Snowmen, etc., is no fun!

I guess to sum up I would say that I try to keep my mind open to any possibility, because I want to keep learning for as long as my mind remains sound (and possibly when it is no longer as well!). I remember making my Mom very angry during a spiritual discussion we were having, and she remarked "That just means you keep changing your mind, and don't have faith in anything!" and I nearly shouted "Of course it does! Why would I want to believe the same things when I'm ninety that I do now? That'll mean I never learned anything in my whole life!"

[my3labs]

Given that most people tend to follow the religion they were raised with – since that is how religions prosper – what religious tradition to you adhere to?
My parents raised me as a Lutheran and we went to church every Sunday. I don't follow any religion anymore.

For the atheists, were you raised without religious teachings? Or did you move away from the religious traditions you were taught as a kid? Since the belief in one or more deities is common on this planet, why / how did you come to the beliefs you now have?
I guess I now consider myself an Atheist. For years I wanted to believe in some kind of higher power and tried to latch on to something. When I first became vegan I really tried to make sense of the world and thought again about God and really wanted to believe but now I believe very much as BowWow believes that if there is a God (or any kind of higher power), he, she or it does not deserve my worship. I just can't grasp any kind of "leader" that would allow the types of things that happen.

For an atheist, is it more a matter of a belief in science, or a lack of belief in God? Or is it something else entirely?
I don't have a belief in science and just about zero respect for it, at least in the way I think of science, which is cruel and unnecessary treatment of animals. Mine is more of a lack of belief in "God".

If a particular religion is important to you, do you believe that your faith is the only ‘real’ faith? Do you follow your faith’s teachings without questioning them?
I think that anyone who follows without questioning is a fool.

Does being an atheist preclude a belief in angels (guardian or otherwise) or other ‘supernatural’ beings? What about reincarnation? The existence of the soul?
I'm not sure where I stand on this.

What do you – atheist, devoutly religious, or in between – believe about fairies and other ‘mythical’ creatures? (Elves, gnomes, mermaids, dragons, yetis, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster etc.)
I think that fairies and/or mythical creatures is probably just that...a myth.

Out of curiosity, do we have a poll on religion? I'd be curious to see where we all stand on this issue.

[thevegantwins]

I grew up Jewish and still consider myself Jewish but that is because I consider Judaism an ethnicity, not just a religion. The reasoning behind my belief is because DNA testing will show not only that I am Jewish but where my Jewish ancestors came from while DNA can not determine other religious beliefs. I do not believe in the Jewish religion. I attended Hebrew school and had my bat-mitzvah when I was 13 years old.

I don't believe in any religion. I think organized religion is inherently wrong. Telling people whom and what they should believe in and for most major religions, telling people that their religion is the right one and all others are wrong. No thanks. It is just a coincidence that Mr. TVT is Jewish too. He considers himself to be Jewish by ancestry and Christian by belief. I have no idea what made him decide he's Christian but he believes in Jesus and all that stuff. I do believe in a higher power which I refer to as God but that's just an easy name to give the higher power. I don't know what spiritual path I would consider myself. I think faeries and other mythical creatures are myths. Like the myth that the US is a democracy. :rolleyes:

[Bowwowmeow]

Out of curiosity, do we have a poll on religion? I'd be curious to see where we all stand on this issue.
I don't think we do.
By the way, anyone here can make a poll, I haven't reserved the privilege for mods only. So if you feel like it, go ahead!

[Gliondrach]

I don't have a religion. I was brought up as a Catholic. I believe in God but have no idea what it is or what, if anything, it wants from us. I have written elsewhere that I think that we are God.

I don't attend any place of worship. I don't do any worshiping or praying. I do send good thoughts out into the universe, and to specific people and other types.

I think my 'faith' or my belief is very fair and reasonable because it has no dogma or teachings and is possible to adapt it as I learn more.

I think Buddhists are atheists, as they don't believe in a God (although they have gods) but they believe in reincarnation and demons, etc.

I don't believe in fairies, dragons, or the Loch Ness monster. There might be some unknown beast in the Himalayas and the American North West. There might be some energies that people tune into and call fairies. But I don't think they are little people who live in the woods. I acknowledge that there might be multiple universes where every possible event is happening. There could be many where another me is doing exactly what I am doing now but is wearing blue socks instead of the purple, orange and green ones that I'm wearing. And another universe where another me is doing exactly everything I am doing and have ever done but is going to make a cup of coffee soon instead of the cup of tea that I am going to make. Or perhaps I am just barking mad. Or is that one of the other mes in another universe?

[Oracl]

For the atheists, were you raised without religious teachings? Or did you move away from the religious traditions you were taught as a kid? Since the belief in one or more deities is common on this planet, why / how did you come to the beliefs you now have?
Raised C of E, attended R C convent school for a while, now adhere to no religious tradition. Atheism brought on by scepticism and cynicism I guess (and by close encounters with nuns).

For an atheist, is it more a matter of a belief in science, or a lack of belief in God? Or is it something else entirely?
Lack of belief in god.

Does being an atheist preclude a belief in angels (guardian or otherwise) or other ‘supernatural’ beings? What about reincarnation? The existence of the soul?
Not sure about souls or reincarnation. Angels are definitely not in my belief system!

What do you – atheist, devoutly religious, or in between – believe about fairies and other ‘mythical’ creatures? (Elves, gnomes, mermaids, dragons, yetis, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster etc.)
Cute but unlikely to exist!

[dreamer]

I was raised Southern Baptist and though I remain Christian, I do not generally agree with the fundamentlist literalism inherent in that denomination. From my own spiritual seeking, I have come to believe in universal salvation (even for you atheists;) --maybe I'll greet you there to explain what happened:D )...partly included in that is my belief that it's likely we are reincarnated many times. I also believe some of the tennets of Buddhism, Taoism, Bahai, Judaism, etc. I believe that ALL religions have some of the "truth," but none have the whole truth. I do NOT believe that the majority of "organized" religions are open to such beliefs and tend to squealch questing for your own "salvation" by following what they believe will lead to salvation. I personally believe that "questing" is a big part of being spiritual and understanding the world, yourself, and the nature of the universe--including the supernatural side (including God). I do believe in God, but do not claim to understand why He allows suffering. Though I might sound a bit naive, I believe that once everything is "finished," it will be obvious why the universe unfolded as it did, but that really doesn't help lessen my pain with the suffering I see now. I just have to trust that the God I have experienced (even in trying times)--a loving and compassionate God--has good reason to allow such things that my limited mind has trouble grasping in this mortal coil. [I personally don't believe that God causes such suffering, but does allow it for whatever reasons...like I said, it's incomprehensible to me at this time, but I believe it will eventually be made clear in the afterlife.] I used to attend a local Methodist church, but I tired of their closed-mindedness, so now I'm not regularly attending church. As far as Nessie and the like, I'm open to the possibility, though I have to admit I'd probably be shocked to find that Fairies and the like exist--though I wouldn't totally dismiss the fact if I "found out" they did.

[Bowwowmeow]

(even for you atheists;) --maybe I'll greet you there to explain what happened:D )
I have a feeling we will all be in for a big surprise when our time comes. :crossfingers:

[dreamer]

I have a feeling we will all be in for a big surprise when our time comes. :crossfingers:
I think so too BWM. I know my mom loved the song "I can only imagine." I personally don't think it'll be that "literal"--dancing and bowing and such--as it will be our spirits, not our bodies. But my parents are literalists: "it is in Earth as it is in Heaven." Wouldn't that be crap:no:

[Charmagne]

I was also raised a Southern Baptist. Sang in the choir - attended vacation bible school in the summer - the whole bit. My Mother was also a Baptist but my father has always been an athiest. His answer to anyone who suggested there was a heaven or hell was "show me". I was taught that you did as the bible stated or suffer the wrath of God.

I quit going to church in my early teens and practice no religion now nor have I for years. I do believe in a higher power I refer to as God but do not do the worship thing. My nephew :( who is excellent at wasting money and time went to school to be an ordained minister for the Assembly of God church. I went a couple of times with my sister but when some of the members started speaking language which they referred to as "tongue" I quit as I feel this was fake. Maybe I am wrong and will find out different when my "day" comes. Anyway he didn't keep up his license and now is considering medical school.:rolleyes:

I'm with the others that stated they do not understand why if God is a loving, caring God he allows the suffering that goes on on this Earth. Why does He allow the innocent to suffer and allow the scum to prosper. My Mother was the most gentle, kindest person anyone would ever want to meet yet she was taken from us at the age of 57 - I turned 30 while she was in intensive care. With all the horrible suffering going on I am more apt to believe if I still believed - that He is in fact a wrathful God. I hope I am wrong and like Dreamer said we will find out why things happened the way they did.

So I guess my lack of belief in God changed me. No, I don't believe in fairies, elves, etc. I would like to believe there is a being in Loch Ness but after the intense searches that have been made doubt it very seriously.

I do believe we have a soul and a spirit along with the other beings that inhabit this Earth that die such horrendous deaths.

[Gliondrach]

I believe that God created the universe and then let it unfold according to the laws of physics. You could say that I am both a Creationist and a Darwinist. If my theory that we are God is correct - and it most likely is, given my profound insights into such things - God suffers everything that anyone suffers. Probably more intensely because it can't switch off, it can't lose consciousness when the pain becomes unbearable, and the pain never ends because there has been suffering for as long as there has been physical life and suffering will continue for as long as physical life continues.

Or perhaps not.

[dreamer]

I've often thought that...that God set things up, then stepped back since He/She gave us "free will." So even though we might royally screw things up, He/She generally doesn't step in to stop us. I too think that God would be deeply saddened when "Creation" gets so messed up--mainly by us humans:(

I wanna know what Brandy thinks:rubchin:

[Oracl]

I wanna know what Brandy thinks :rubchin:
:agree:

[Brandy]

Firstly, thank you all so much for answering such personal questions so openly and thoroughly! :colors: Because we are all vegans with a particular fondness for animals, I had (stupidly) imagined that our spiritual beliefs would have been quite similar; I had not expected such diversity. :)

Secondly, I apologise for taking so long to respond to this thread! :sorry:

I wanna know what Brandy thinks:rubchin:

Much of my spiritual belief system has already been covered in my magazine articles – and I don’t want to repeat myself endlessly :o but out of fairness, I’ll answer my own questions here.

I was raised with a particular spiritual belief system :nat: (but nothing that could be classified as a religion), and for the most part, I still believe in it. I was taught that there is a benevolent Creator, and – despite the state of the world – I still believe it. I no longer practice the “ceremonies” I was taught as a kid, but I still pray every day, (often more than once); although the prayers are always in my own words, not recited from any religious doctrine.

My preferred “place of worship” is the great outdoors, yet I will pray anywhere / anytime. I don’t reserve any particular day as “holy”, don’t celebrate Easter or Christmas, and the number of times I have set foot in a church could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

I actually think that in many cases, scientists are the scum of the earth. :devil2: Science & its practitioners are generally so arrogant in their belief that they have the right to tear something apart simply to satisfy their own curiosity and to see how it works.

I have never thought that I have all the answers or that my faith is the only correct one. I am interested in comparative religion and I strive to keep learning, but I would not accept anyone’s teachings without questioning them. :no:

I believe in angels (guardian and otherwise) but not in the “cutesy” variety you see so often these days in art and statues. I also believe in spirit guides / advisors. I believe in reincarnation and therefore in the existence of an “immortal” soul – which I believe that other life forms also possess.

Largely because of the traditions I was raised with – not from personal encounters – I believe in fairies, elves, gnomes, mermaids, yetis, and Bigfoot. My mind is wide open about dragons and the Loch Ness monster.

And even though I use some variation on the term “when it’s snowing on the hills of hell” to indicate something that’s never going to happen, I was never told that such a place was real and consequently, I neither fear it nor believe in it.

[thevegantwins]

I believe in angels (guardian and otherwise) but not in the “cutesy” variety you see so often these days in art and statues. I also believe in spirit guides / advisors. I believe in reincarnation and therefore in the existence of an “immortal” soul – which I believe that other life forms also possess.
I guess in that sense, I do believe in spirits. Ever since my dad died when I turned 18, I have felt a presence at certain times which have knowingly protected me from a dangerous situation. Sometimes, this presence has even stopped me from doing something. I vividly remember being in Paris when I was 19, my first international trip and first solo trip. I was about to walk down a quaint street when I felt such a strong force preventing me from doing so. I went another way and that feeling disappeared. My father and I were very close and I still think it was his way of protecting me from harm. :ghost:

[1vegan]

Given that most people tend to follow the religion they were raised with – since that is how religions prosper – what religious tradition to you adhere to?

I was raised with some kind of christian belief, but not the heavy kind.
I went to a christian school and I remember we were told stories about the bible.
My parents had a few christian friends of the what I’d now call, “christian extremists”.
Locally known as the “black stockings church”, members of it were not allowed to take insurance on their house or car, cause that would be interfering with the will of god.

When my parents divorced, those people turned their back on my mum, and I guess that though I was about 10 years old back then, I understood that something wasn’t right.
After all, if your SO christian, how can you judge or condemn other people? In my child’s view, it didn’t match with what the bible said.
Back then I couldn’t understand why those “christian extremist” were not allowed to have or view TV, after all, the bible is hundreds of years old, so how could that cover a new invention like the TV? Also, according to them, woman were not allowed to wear trousers or jeans, and they couldn’t drive the car on sunday, they had to walk to the church (with some kind of hat on)

I’m not religious, maybe there is something, maybe there isn’t, but to call that god, I don’t know if that’s right, and there seem a lot of versions of “god” going around in the world.

As far as teaching religion, I think that christian schools are not that great, in the years I’ve come to the view that religion is one of the first instruments to control human(s) masses.
It’s a system to put rules on people, and it’s a sort of law system too.
I’m not totally against religion, cause to some extends, they preach something that I like to call “decency”.

I also think that religion is used by a lot of people to get away from responsibility for what they do or think. Putting things in the “hands of God”, or excuses like “God’s will”.
Religion can and is used as a coping mechanism in my view.
“But god gave us the animals to eat” is just one form of it.

I don’t like “special” occasions cause they are so often commercialised.
And if my wife would get me something nice for “Fathers day”, is that cause she loves me, or by “peer pressure” cause people are (subtle) forced in buying things?
Same goes with Christmas, that’s no longer linked to the kind of “christianity” that I thought to read in the bible.
(I like the free days on “christian holidays” though ;) )

If some one is religious, I don’t see how that would require showing up in church every Sunday, but I’ve had my experience with the “fake holy” kinds, as I mentioned earlier


I don’t believe in “angels” (unless we’re talking about the motorcycle club :p )
But I do think there is “something”, that doesn’t have to be god’s workforce, but it could be some kind of guidance ghost.
Maybe if we “sense” something that we like to call an angel or guidance ghost, that it’s more that we some how log in to our “supernatural” or very “primary” antenna’s?
I do believe in “feeling something”, as I have had special images if people told me something.
I also seem to have an antenna for feeling things are not right, but that could also be cause I have learned about body language from a deaf friend.
Just like others mentioned, I’ve had the feeling that some people from my past, are sometimes with me.

Reincarnation; well, no thanks please, I don’t remember it exactly anymore, but I once (in despair) consulted a medium for my problems, and according to her, my problems stemmed from about 50 or 60 lives ago. If I still can’t get it right after so many lives, can’t I just be “thrown away” when this life is over?

About angels, gnomes, mermaids and so on, I won’t rule out that there is another dimension that we perhaps sometimes connect with.

Like Rumsfeld said:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

It’s often laughed at, but there was a time that we humans didn’t know there were radio waves, I think that in the medieval times there were radio waves already, but we didn’t know they were there. Now we know.

So maybe that things like gnomes, are just things we don’t know how to pick up yet, and as long it can’t be reproduced in a lab, we (or science) doesn’t acknowledge them.
Doesn’t have to mean there really isn’t anything else.

But I do think that a lot of people, who believe in, let’s call it “new age religion”, just believe in it so they have a substitute for a regular religion. I don’t know if there’s much difference between “bad karma” and “god will deal with you”

And when I die and there is a god that I would hold me responsible for what I did, I think I can come up with a pretty good story, so I’m not afraid for it.

[Brandy]

Now that the computer & ISP are behaving :yea: I can finally respond to this thread!
... My Pa was always "First Reader" which is like a pastor, or a priest, or a reverend, I guess, and he was a practitioner as well, which meant he gave healings. He healed me of chicken pox; the scabs were gone in three days, as opposed to weeks with other kids...
That's amazing! :)
I moved away from the religious teachings of my childhood. It occurred to me one day that Jesus and Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) were people just like me, and if they could make spiritual discoveries, then so could I. I didn't disrespect them, I simply found respect for my own ability to draw conclusions about the nature of Life that were as valid as anyone else's.
You are a wise woman. :agree:
... I do not like the way the world works, and if there is someone in charge, his "mysterious ways" are a little too mysterious for me. I cannot accept that a world so filled with the unprovoked and needless suffering of the innocent is run by a benevolent Creator, and if there is someone in charge, he is a sadistic psychotic, and if I am wrong in my atheism, all I want when I die is one chance to aim a good swift kick at his sorry ass before I get shot off to Hell, which, in my opinion, can't be much worse than the world I'm living in right now.
I thought the exact geographical location of hell was earth! You know, "Hell on earth!" :whistle:
... In spite of my atheism, I consider myself a very spiritual person...
IMHO, BWM, I believe there is a world of difference between spiritual and religious beliefs / behaviour. :agree:
... I like to be rational whenever possible, but I also think living in a world without Santa Claus, tree spirits, animal totems, Abominable Snowmen, etc., is no fun!
I was raised to believe in animal totems & tree spirits, but not Santa Claus! I've never seen the three ideas connected before. :lol:
... I remember making my Mom very angry during a spiritual discussion we were having, and she remarked "That just means you keep changing your mind, and don't have faith in anything!" and I nearly shouted "Of course it does! Why would I want to believe the same things when I'm ninety that I do now? That'll mean I never learned anything in my whole life!"

I suspect that my mum would have loved to have you for a daughter BWM. :psmooch:
I think that anyone who follows without questioning is a fool.
:agree::thumbsup:
Out of curiosity, do we have a poll on religion? I'd be curious to see where we all stand on this issue.
Have you created your poll yet, my3labs? :rubchin:
I grew up Jewish and still consider myself Jewish but that is because I consider Judaism an ethnicity, not just a religion. The reasoning behind my belief is because DNA testing will show not only that I am Jewish but where my Jewish ancestors came from while DNA cannot determine other religious beliefs.
That’s fascinating TVT. :) I didn’t know that about the DNA.
I don't attend any place of worship. I don't do any worshiping or praying. I do send good thoughts out into the universe, and to specific people and other types.

I think my 'faith' or my belief is very fair and reasonable because it has no dogma or teachings and is possible to adapt it as I learn more.
:agree:
I acknowledge that there might be multiple universes where every possible event is happening. There could be many where another me is doing exactly what I am doing now but is wearing blue socks instead of the purple, orange and green ones that I'm wearing. And another universe where another me is doing exactly everything I am doing and have ever done but is going to make a cup of coffee soon instead of the cup of tea that I am going to make. Or perhaps I am just barking mad. Or is that one of the other me’s in another universe?
Very interesting idea! But do you really wear purple, orange and green socks? :covereyes:
Raised C of E, attended R C convent school for a while, now adhere to no religious tradition. Atheism brought on by scepticism and cynicism I guess (and by close encounters with nuns).
:speechless: Just how bad were the encounters with the nuns?
I was raised Southern Baptist and though I remain Christian, I do not generally agree with the fundamentalist literalism inherent in that denomination. From my own spiritual seeking, I have come to believe in universal salvation (even for you atheists --maybe I'll greet you there to explain what happened )...partly included in that is my belief that it's likely we are reincarnated many times. I also believe some of the tenets of Buddhism, Taoism, Baha’i, Judaism, etc. I believe that ALL religions have some of the "truth," but none have the whole truth. I do NOT believe that the majority of "organized" religions are open to such beliefs and tend to squelch questing for your own "salvation" by following what they believe will lead to salvation. I personally believe that "questing" is a big part of being spiritual and understanding the world, yourself, and the nature of the universe--including the supernatural side (including God). I do believe in God, but do not claim to understand why He allows suffering. Though I might sound a bit naive, I believe that once everything is "finished," it will be obvious why the universe unfolded as it did, but that really doesn't help lessen my pain with the suffering I see now. I just have to trust that the God I have experienced (even in trying times)--a loving and compassionate God--has good reason to allow such things that my limited mind has trouble grasping in this mortal coil. [I personally don't believe that God causes such suffering, but does allow it for whatever reasons...like I said, it's incomprehensible to me at this time, but I believe it will eventually be made clear in the afterlife.]
Even though I was not raised as a Christian :no: I was taught that there is a loving and compassionate Creator, and like you dreamer, I still believe that. And I also cannot wrap my mind around the reason that God / Goddess allows so much suffering – but I hope that the reasons will be explained to me eventually. :whiteflag: :sigh:
I was also raised a Southern Baptist. Sang in the choir - attended vacation bible school in the summer - the whole bit. My Mother was also a Baptist but my father has always been an atheist. His answer to anyone who suggested there was a heaven or hell was "show me". I was taught that you did as the bible stated or suffer the wrath of God.
My dad was an atheist while my mum was very spiritual – makes for an interesting upbringing, doesn’t it, Charmagne? :rolleyes: Fortunately (for me) mum didn’t believe in the bible.
I quit going to church in my early teens and practice no religion now nor have I for years. I do believe in a higher power I refer to as God but do not do the worship thing. My nephew who is excellent at wasting money and time went to school to be an ordained minister for the Assembly of God church. I went a couple of times with my sister but when some of the members started speaking language which they referred to as "tongue" I quit as I feel this was fake. Maybe I am wrong and will find out different when my "day" comes...
With all due respect, that business of “speaking in tongues” (which is what a Christian friend of mine called it) seems like nonsense! Why would the Creator – or any other high spiritual being such as an angel – speak in gibberish? :confused: Wouldn’t he / she want to be understood by us mere mortals?
I'm with the others that stated they do not understand why if God is a loving, caring God he allows the suffering that goes on this Earth. Why does He allow the innocent to suffer and allow the scum to prosper. My Mother was the most gentle, kindest person anyone would ever want to meet yet she was taken from us at the age of 57 - I turned 30 while she was in intensive care. With all the horrible suffering going on I am more apt to believe if I still believed - that He is in fact a wrathful God. I hope I am wrong and like Dreamer said we will find out why things happened the way they did.
Sorry about your mum, Charmagne. Hopefully one day we’ll all learn why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people!
I believe that God created the universe and then let it unfold according to the laws of physics. You could say that I am both a Creationist and a Darwinist. If my theory that we are God is correct - and it most likely is, given my profound insights into such things - God suffers everything that anyone suffers. Probably more intensely because it can't switch off, it can't lose consciousness when the pain becomes unbearable, and the pain never ends because there has been suffering for as long as there has been physical life and suffering will continue for as long as physical life continues.
I believe that you are 100% right about the creation of the universe, Gliondrach. :agree: And I wouldn’t be surprised if you are right about God suffering everything we suffer. :rubchin:
I've often thought that...that God set things up, then stepped back since He/She gave us "free will." So even though we might royally screw things up, He/She generally doesn't step in to stop us. I too think that God would be deeply saddened when "Creation" gets so messed up--mainly by us humans
I agree 100% with you too, dreamer. :agree:
I guess in that sense, I do believe in spirits. Ever since my dad died when I turned 18, I have felt a presence at certain times which have knowingly protected me from a dangerous situation. Sometimes, this presence has even stopped me from doing something. I vividly remember being in Paris when I was 19, my first international trip and first solo trip. I was about to walk down a quaint street when I felt such a strong force preventing me from doing so. I went another way and that feeling disappeared. My father and I were very close and I still think it was his way of protecting me from harm.
Sorry about your dad, TVT. :( It’s wonderful that the “presence” was there to protect you, though!
I was raised with some kind of Christian belief, but not the heavy kind. I went to a Christian school and I remember we were told stories about the bible. My parents had a few Christian friends of the what I’d now call, “Christian extremists”. Locally known as the “black stockings church”, members of it were not allowed to take insurance on their house or car, cause that would be interfering with the will of god.
That kind of extremism defies logic, IMHO. So many things are blamed on the “will of God”, it’s ridiculous! :hbang:
When my parents divorced, those people turned their back on my mum, and I guess that though I was about 10 years old back then, I understood that something wasn’t right. After all, if your SO Christian, how can you judge or condemn other people? In my child’s view, it didn’t match with what the bible said.
I suspect that children :beanie: are often wiser than the adults :professor: around them! Sometimes I think that I would be a far better writer (and human being) if I could just remember how I viewed the world all those years ago. :sigh:
As far as teaching religion, I think that Christian schools are not that great, in the years I’ve come to the view that religion is one of the first instruments to control human(s) masses. It’s a system to put rules on people, and it’s a sort of law system too. I’m not totally against religion, cause to some extends, they preach something that I like to call “decency”.
I agree with you, 1vegan, that religion can be / is a powerful method to control the masses. If you can convince people that you control the fate of their immortal souls – put the “fear of God” into them – you can convince many people to do almost anything!
If someone is religious, I don’t see how that would require showing up in church every Sunday, but I’ve had my experience with the “fake holy” kinds, as I mentioned earlier.
The whole Sabbath thing never made sense to me, either. :no: My mother always said that people should behave in a spiritual manner seven days a week! :angelic:
Reincarnation; well, no thanks please, I don’t remember it exactly anymore, but I once (in despair) consulted a medium for my problems, and according to her, my problems stemmed from about 50 or 60 lives ago. If I still can’t get it right after so many lives, can’t I just be “thrown away” when this life is over?
From the little I know about you (from this forum), you seem to be a kind man, 1vegan. :) There are far too many so-called professional psychics around who don’t know what they are talking about but they prey on people when they are down! :mad: And without knowing your circumstances, it seems to me that to claim that your problems are linked to a lifetime “50 or 60 lives ago” is ridiculous. It sounds like she had no idea what to say or how to help so she just threw the responsibility back at you to save her own credibility.
About angels, gnomes, mermaids and so on, I won’t rule out that there is another dimension that we perhaps sometimes connect with.

Like Rumsfeld said:

Quote:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

It’s often laughed at, but there was a time that we humans didn’t know there were radio waves, I think that in the medieval times there were radio waves already, but we didn’t know they were there. Now we know.

So maybe that things like gnomes, are just things we don’t know how to pick up yet, and as long it can’t be reproduced in a lab, we (or science) doesn’t acknowledge them. Doesn’t have to mean there really isn’t anything else.
Nice quote by Rumsfeld. I believe that the human race :dunce: knows about less than half of what really lives on this planet ...

[dreamer]

With all due respect, that business of “speaking in tongues” (which is what a Christian friend of mine called it) seems like nonsense! Why would the Creator – or any other high spiritual being such as an angel – speak in gibberish? :confused: Wouldn’t he / she want to be understood by us mere mortals?
As far as speaking in tongues, my dad (a fundamentalist literalist Paulist) says that it was originally supposed to be that the person "speaking" was talking in a foreign language that someone else in attendance spoke but the person speaking it didn't even know. In other words, the person speaking in tongues speaks, say, French even though they've NEVER had a class in French or in any way learned French, yet someone is there that knows French and God is speaking to that person who will understand the "speaker's" message. Now there are churches which, as you said, speak "nonsense" and usually someone else will "interpret" it, but that's not really what speaking in tongues was supposed to be...what it's "supposed" to be makes more sense to me, but I've never seen it happen. It kinda goes in the same vein as those who attend snake-handling churches and handle poisonous snakes. They take the one verse out of context that says someone who has faith can take up serpents and not be killed. What they ignore is that elsewhere even Jesus says that you should not expect God to take care of you if you intentionally throw yourself in harm's way--which I consider poisonous snake handling to be. I think that idea might also apply to the people mentioned who don't have car, house, or life insurance...I think God expects you to take reasonable precautions with your life and living arrangements (with car insurance it would also pay others if you did something wrong).

I agree with you, 1vegan, that religion can be / is a powerful method to control the masses. If you can convince people that you control the fate of their immortal souls – put the “fear of God” into them – you can convince many people to do almost anything!
I agree as well, especially when the "cult of personality" is involved. That is, many people believe what religious leaders tell them w/o even checking out if it is true. I've had students quote "the Bible" and I ask them where that is in the Bible and they have no idea because it's not actually there! Their parents or preacher told them it was in the Bible, so they believed them!

The whole Sabbath thing never made sense to me, either. :no: My mother always said that people should behave in a spiritual manner seven days a week! :angelic:
Totally true. If you are truly trying to follow the path of righteousness (which is not what the closed-minded fundamentalist literalist Paulists espouse), it would not just be one day a week. I also get annoyed with christians who think that faith is all they need, so it doesn't matter how evil their actions are as long as they believe in Jesus. Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the "law," but others have followed more Paul's writings and take hold of the passage in John in which Jesus says (paraphrase): "I am the truth and the light, there is no other way but me." My understanding is that the logic of which books to include (about 200 years after Jesus' death) was flawed in that the Catholic church wanted to be the only "way" to salvation and chose books that supported that claim (as well as other claims such as animals and even women being lesser in God's eyes). I also think that people look at Paul saying that you can not attain salvation through "works" as saying that you don't even have to bother being "good" (which I have a problem with Paul's inclusion period as he's taken as THE voice of God and never even met Jesus when Jesus was alive, yet he is held as the "ultimate"/superior disciple).

Nice quote by Rumsfeld. I believe that the human race :dunce: knows about less than half of what really lives on this planet ...
Yeah, it's too bad Rumsfeld didn't follow the idea of that quote when it came to Iraq:rolleyes:

[dreamer]

I remember making my Mom very angry during a spiritual discussion we were having, and she remarked "That just means you keep changing your mind, and don't have faith in anything!" and I nearly shouted "Of course it does! Why would I want to believe the same things when I'm ninety that I do now? That'll mean I never learned anything in my whole life!"

My mom's gotten angry at me quite a few times. Especially when she talks about how vengeful God is and I disagree with her. Once I was reading a book about universal salvation. She said, "I don't know why you read this stuff that makes God sound like a human being." I said, "does it sound 'human' to be able to forgive anything?" And she said, "well, no, but God doesn't do that." Luckily I have an older brother who understands why I think searching for the truth is part of spiritual growth and he even told me once (recently), "if you are 100% sure of your beliefs, you're not growing or able to find new enlightenment"...you're basically spiritually dead if you think you have all the answers. Unfortunately, I know lots of people who think they know it all...like my parents think every answer is in the Bible:no:

[Brandy]

As far as speaking in tongues, my dad (a fundamentalist literalist Paulist) says that it was originally supposed to be that the person "speaking" was talking in a foreign language that someone else in attendance spoke but the person speaking it didn't even know. In other words, the person speaking in tongues speaks, say, French even though they've NEVER had a class in French or in any way learned French, yet someone is there that knows French and God is speaking to that person who will understand the "speaker's" message. Now there are churches which, as you said, speak "nonsense" and usually someone else will "interpret" it, but that's not really what speaking in tongues was supposed to be...what it's "supposed" to be makes more sense to me, but I've never seen it happen. It kinda goes in the same vein as those who attend snake-handling churches and handle poisonous snakes. They take the one verse out of context that says someone who has faith can take up serpents and not be killed. What they ignore is that elsewhere even Jesus says that you should not expect God to take care of you if you intentionally throw yourself in harm's way--which I consider poisonous snake handling to be. I think that idea might also apply to the people mentioned who don't have car, house, or life insurance...I think God expects you to take reasonable precautions with your life and living arrangements (with car insurance it would also pay others if you did something wrong).
Thanks for explaining the origin of the tongues business. I've never witnessed it personally - the only information I have is from Christian friends who told me that the people basically speak gibberish. And I agree entirely that we should all take reasonable precautions to protect our lives etc.
Totally true. If you are truly trying to follow the path of righteousness (which is not what the closed-minded fundamentalist literalist Paulists espouse), it would not just be one day a week. I also get annoyed with christians who think that faith is all they need, so it doesn't matter how evil their actions are as long as they believe in Jesus. Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the "law," but others have followed more Paul's writings and take hold of the passage in John in which Jesus says (paraphrase): "I am the truth and the light, there is no other way but me." My understanding is that the logic of which books to include (about 200 years after Jesus' death) was flawed in that the Catholic church wanted to be the only "way" to salvation and chose books that supported that claim (as well as other claims such as animals and even women being lesser in God's eyes). I also think that people look at Paul saying that you can not attain salvation through "works" as saying that you don't even have to bother being "good" (which I have a problem with Paul's inclusion period as he's taken as THE voice of God and never even met Jesus when Jesus was alive, yet he is held as the "ultimate"/superior disciple).
Even though Mum was not a Christian, she had a lot of respect for Jesus as a teacher. She believed that when he (reportedly) said "I am the way ..." , he meant that we should try to emulate his behaviour, his compassion and kindness etc. That does make sense to me. :)

But I shouldn't be talking about the Bible because I've never read it. :o

[dreamer]

Even though Mum was not a Christian, she had a lot of respect for Jesus as a teacher. She believed that when he (reportedly) said "I am the way ..." , he meant that we should try to emulate his behaviour, his compassion and kindness etc. That does make sense to me. :)

Yes, it would be nice if people interpret it that way, but most christians (at least the fundamentalist literalist Paulists) take it as faith in Jesus being the Son of God/God is the only way to heaven. From my experience, most of these people do NOT follow Jesus' example in behavior, compassion, pacifism, etc. The world would be a much better place if most christians tried to emulate Jesus instead of just saying they believe...I try to do so (that's part of the reason I consider myself a christian), though I'm sure I don't do as well as I could:o