Atheism

[Bowwowmeow]

Angry atheists are hot authors

From AFX News Limited
May 24, 2007 3:35 PM EDT

The time for polite debate is over. Militant, atheist writers are making an all-out assault on religious faith and reaching the top of the best-seller list, a sign of widespread resentment over the influence of religion in the world among nonbelievers.

Christopher Hitchens' book, "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything," has sold briskly ever since it was published last month, and his debates with clergy are drawing crowds at every stop.

Sam Harris was a little-known graduate student until he wrote the phenomenally successful "The End of Faith" and its follow-up, "Letter to a Christian Nation." Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and Daniel Dennett's "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" struck similar themes -- and sold.

"There is something like a change in the Zeitgeist," Hitchens said, noting that sales of his latest book far outnumber those for his earlier work that had challenged faith. "There are a lot of people, in this country in particular, who are fed up with endless lectures by bogus clerics and endless bullying."

Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, a prominent evangelical school in Pasadena, Calif., said the books' success reflect a new vehemence in the atheist critique.

"I don't believe in conspiracy theories," Mouw said, "but it's almost like they all had a meeting and said, 'Let's counterattack.'"

The war metaphor is apt. The writers see themselves in a battle for reason in a world crippled by superstition. In their view, Muslim extremists, Jewish settlers and Christian right activists are from the same mold, using fairy tales posing as divine scripture to justify their lust for power. Bad behavior in the name of religion is behind some of the most dangerous global conflicts and the terrorist attacks in the U.S., London and Madrid, the atheists say.
As Hitchens puts it: "Religion kills."

The Rev. Douglas Wilson, senior fellow in theology at New Saint Andrews College, a Christian school in Moscow, Idaho, sees the books as a sign of secular panic. He says nonbelievers are finally realizing that, contrary to what they were taught in college, faith is not dead.
Signs of believers' political and cultural might abound.

Religious challenges to teaching evolution are still having an impact, 80 years after the infamous Scopes "Monkey" trial. The dramatic growth in homeschooling and private Christian schools is raising questions about the future of public education. Religious leaders have succeeded in putting some limits on stem-cell research.

And the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding a national ban on a procedure critics call "partial-birth abortion" -- the first federal curbs on an abortion procedure in a generation -- came after decades of religious lobbying for conservative justices.

"It sort of dawned on the secular establishment that they might lose here," said Wilson, who is debating Hitchens on christianitytoday.com and has written the book "Letter from a Christian Citizen" in response to Harris. "All of this is happening precisely because there's a significant force that they have to deal with."

Indeed, believers far outnumber nonbelievers in America. In an 2005 AP-Ipsos poll on religion, only 2 percent of U.S. respondents said they did not believe in God. Other surveys concluded that 14 percent of Americans consider themselves secular, a term that can include believers who say they have no religion.

Some say liberal outrage over the policies of President Bush is partly fueling sales, even though Hitchens famously supported the invasion of Iraq.
To those Americans, the nation's born-again president is the No. 1 representative of the religious right activists who helped put him in office. Critics see Bush's Christian faith behind some of his worst decisions and his stubborn defense of the war in Iraq.

"There is this general sense that evangelicals have really gained a lot of power in the United States and the Bush administration seems to represent that in some significant ways," said Christian Smith, a sociologist of religion at the University of Notre Dame. "A certain group of people sees it that way and that's really disturbing."

Mouw said conservative Christians are partly to blame for the backlash. The rhetoric of some evangelical leaders has been so strident, they have invited the rebuke, the seminary president said.

"We have done a terrible job of presenting our perspective as a plausible world view that has implications for public life and for education, presenting that in a way that is sensitive to the concerns of people who may disagree," he said. "Whatever may be wrong with Christopher Hitchens attacks on religious leaders, we have certainly already matched it in our attacks."

Given the popularity of the anti-religion books so far, publishers are expected to roll out even more in the future. Lynn Garrett, senior religion editor for Publishers Weekly, says religion has been one of the fastest-growing categories in publishing in the last 15 years, and the rise of books by atheists is "the flip-side of that."

"It was just the time," she said, "for the atheists to take the gloves off."


"The writers see themselves in a battle for reason in a world crippled by superstition. In their view, Muslim extremists, Jewish settlers and Christian right activists are from the same mold, using fairy tales posing as divine scripture to justify their lust for power. Bad behavior in the name of religion is behind some of the most dangerous global conflicts and the terrorist attacks in the U.S., London and Madrid, the atheists say.
As Hitchens puts it: 'Religion kills.' "


There is a type of human being whose inner dialogue goes as follows:
***"I am a worthless, good for nothing piece of crap, comnpletely unable to develop any self esteem on my own. Because of this, I can't feel good about myself unless I can decide that an "other" is even more degraded than I am.

I have an inexplicable need to abuse these "others", because without being able to define these "others" as lesser than myself, and therefore deserving of nothing but my contempt and abuse, I have no way of proving to myself that I am even good enough, let alone superior.

It can never be enough for me to simply ignore the existence of these "others"; indeed, since I have actually gone to the trouble of deciding that they are "other", I am compelled to define them as inferior, and punish them for their inferiority. Those who are inferior must beeither exploited or destroyed, not left alone. If they can be exploited for something that I want, I have the right to do so, and if they can't, then I have the right to destroy them. After all, if I don't do it to them, they might realize how inferior and contemptible I really am, and harm me before I can manage to harm them. ***

The existence of people with this diseased minset is what makes any religion or political system fail. Yes, Muslims, Jews, Christians, do use their religions to justify their lust for power over others. So do capitalists, socialists, communists, use their respective "manifestos" to justify their lust for power over others.

The problem isn't the religion. Its the human lust for power over others. Its not something that comes from a church, or a book. Its an unrecognized mental disease, promoted by valuing competition over cooperation.

There is nothing inherently wrong with any work of spiritual or political philosophy. Its when the people who suffer from the above-described mental condition use their favorite doctrine to justify their desire to define "us" and "them", and then proceed to harm "them". I sure do get tired of never seeing this idea promoted in articles like the one I quoted. Atheists are just as likely to have people of this violent, close-minded, spiritually atrophied nature as any other group.

What is a mystery to me is that people who need to identify themselves as superior do not feel a natural urge to help and protect those they deem weaker. To me, if I am stronger than someone in some way, I will either help them if they accept it, or leave them be. For example, the idea that because I am so much bigger and more physically powerful than say, slugs and snails, I can go stomping them to jelly under my shoes, is stomach-turningly repugnant to me. Why isn't it to the majority of humans?

The need to freely define others as inferior, and then use this arbitrary definition to justify preying upon them and causing them pain, suffering and death, is not the exclusive domain of your least favorite religion. As an atheist myself, I would like to think that atheists are less likely to ascribe to this mindset. But I've got a very strong suspicion that the majority of atheists are not vegan, which they would need to be to prove that they do not suffer from the same delusions of superiority shared by their religious brethren. It seems to me that a truly ethical vegan is the only person likely to be free of the desire to define others as lesser in order to justify causing them some kind of harm. And so far to me it looks like vegans come from every political persuasion and religious philosophy.

[IndyVegan]

i seem to run into a lot of vegan atheists!! but yeah, the majority of atheists aren't vegan, well maybe here in the U.S. there is a significant amount of people who are both. However, in Europe, where atheism is becoming very popular, and is the majority belief in some countries, I'd tend to say most of them aren't vegan. I do not have numbers to back up any of my suspicions, though!

Atheists, rock. I'm pretty impressed with Sam Harris. I bought both of his books and have watched some of the debates he's been involved in. I saw him on Colbert once, but he does't seem to be too humorous, so I don't think he looked too good that time out. You have to know how to play along with Colbert, who, btw, is funny as all hell.

[Bowwowmeow]

I wish we could get veganism on the best seller lists in the same way the atheists are getting atheism on them. Its amazing that only 2 percent of Americans are atheist.
I remember seeing a documentary years ago on Margaret Murray O'Hare, who was the most hated woman in America, for being an outspoken atheist. She disappeared, and foul play was suspected, but the police refused to investigate. It seems that atheists are the only people in this country who are fair game to whomever wants to take them out. :mad:

George Bush on atheists:

George Bush states that atheists are not citizens or patriots

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By my calculation, at least 2.2 million atheists Americans fought in American wars from World War Two onward. Tens of thousands have died "for America." George would have these men and women stripped of their citizenship? He does not recognize their patriotism?! --- shy david
With the 1992 election looming, here is a brochure detailing exactly why atheists or anyone who genuinely values separation of church and state, should NOT vote for George Bush:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISSUE
Can George Bush, with impunity, state that atheists should not be considered either citizens or patriots?

The History of the Issue

By Madalyn O'Hair

When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush.

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in god is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a law- suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place.
Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?
Murnane: It's bullshit.

Sherman: What is bullshit?

Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit.

Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue.

Murnane: You're welcome

This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not considered to be bullshit by the federal judge before whom it is pending. During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God."
After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987 statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating that substantively Bush stood by his original statement.

"As you are aware[sic], the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government."
American Atheists had not asked Bush to either "unnecessarily" or even "necessarily" encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for the insult. Many atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7, 1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray, the president of American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification of and an apology for his statement that atheists "should not be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Bush ignored the letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush.
Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House stationery. He stated that the president "appreciated your taking the time to write and your willingness to share your thoughts" but that "due to heavy commitments on his official calendar" the president could not meet with representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to remark that "bigots" must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of atheists as being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund replied again on White House stationery--- stating

"We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous correspondence."
Indeed it has and that position is that George Bush is a bigot.
On February 21, 1990, American Atheists wrote to every member of the United States Congress asking that body to pass a resolution condemning discrimination against atheists by any elected or appointed official of government. The offered resolution read:

No person in public life may be free to impugn the patriotism of any minority group because of that group's opinion in respect to religion. President George Bush is herewith censured for his public expression of August 27, 1987, at which time he stated: "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
You don't need to guess how many senators and representatives answered that letter: there were none. At this point, American Atheists sent a list of the members of Congress to all of its membership and asked each one to write or telephone their congressmen. Hundreds of angry letters and telephone calls were received at the American Atheist GHQ during the next several months as it became obvious that the elected Congress was composed entirely of politicians too damn yellow to challenge Bush. In just one campaign incident, American Atheists was able to teach thousands of the nation's top-notch citizens that their government did not give a damn about them. This exercise added appreciably to the malcontentedness in the nation and rightly so.
American Atheists then sent every single columnist in the United States a packet of information--- from Pat Buchanan to Jim Fain. Only one was courageous enough to write a lengthy article on the matter: Tom Tiede. And the newspapers in which Tiede was syndicated did print his column taking the president to task. A little later, the CNN feature program "Larry King Live" broadcast a quarter-hour interview with Mr. Robert Sherman, as he detailed the perfidy of President Bush.

When George Bush appeared on the campus of the University of Texas on May 19, 1990, American Atheists placed a full-page advertisement in the Austin American Statesman detailing the above and demanding an apology and an explanation. The founders of American Atheists, a thirty-year-old organization, are both honorably discharged veterans: Richard E O'Hair, U.S. Marines (totally and permanently disabled); and Madalyn O'Hair, Women's Army Corps. Both served in World War II.

On December 23, 1990, in Chicago, Illinois Mr. Robert Sherman met with Ed Derwinski, the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs, to discuss exclusion of American Atheists from veteran's groups which have been chartered by the United States Congress. Mr. Derwinski said he would do "absolutely nothing" about the discrimination. On January 3, Mr. Sherman crossed paths with Ed Derwinski again at the Illinois inaugurations. He asked Mr. Derwinski, at that time, what American Atheists could do to have the Bush administration take an interest in the problem of discrimination against American Atheist veterans. Mr. Derwinski's response was:

"What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in God. Get off our backs."
When Mr. Sherman was in Washington, D.C., on another issue on March 20, 1991, he again met with Mr. Derwinski, who, on this occasion, shouted that the atheists should "get off his back," that the Bush administration would do nothing for them, and that they would need to "sue" to end discrimination against them.

To add pointed insult to injury, the City of Chicago Commission on Human Rights refused to permit American Atheist Veterans to appear as a group in the Fourth of July "Welcome Home" parade for the veterans of Desert Storm in that city.

In the corridors of American history, atheists have loomed large: Clarence Darrow, Margaret Sanger, Mark Twain, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, Albert Einstein, California's Governor Culbert L. Olson, Thomas Edison, the great botanist Luther Burbank, and James Smithson, founder of the Smithsonian Institution. The list is long.

American Atheists ask that you write to George Bush, President of the United States, at The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500 and ask him for an apology to this group which comprises from 9 to 16 percent of the population.

Copies of this brochure (order #8286) are available at the cost of ten cents each from:

American Atheist Veterans
7215 Cameron Road, Austin TX 78752

holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm

[Oracl]

George Bush on atheists.
Wow! That's scary! :eek:

[1vegan]

George Bush on atheists.

As if we needed more prove that american is run in to the ground by (extreme) right wing christians fundamentalist :no:

To me, saying in the U.S that you don't believe in god, is like saying your homosexual :(

it's political uncorrect to doubt or not blindly follow the bible, and who does...well...you could be in "trouble"

(just my european view on things, not an attempt to smear the u.s)

did any one notice the "elections" started today?
it's gonna be a bloody summer in iraq is said now, so, just wait till the thread levels go from to green to yellow, and closer to the election to orange.
Anything to manipulate the people of the U.S to "force" them to vote republican ;)

Anyway, I think religion is often a way to duck ones own responsibility.
It can be good to hide behind "I'm not to blame, god is putting me to the test"

sorry for the rant :o

[IndyVegan]

Bush, along with others in his regime are war criminals. He needs to not only be impeached but thrown in jail. I'm dead serious. :blecch:

[dreamer]

Do you think that the George Bush mentioned is H.W., not W? (Since they mention the 1992 election.) Regardless, I'm sure that W. believes similarly. If I had to think like W to be christian, I'd probably at least say I was atheist to avoid that stigma;) :D

I agree with you, BWM. Religion is not the only factor in the world's problems (including wars). I have heard people argue that w/o religion, there would be no wars. Now I know it's a cartoon, but I think an episode of South Park got it right. In it, the societies of the future are run by atheists. However, each atheist group still has different beliefs about what true atheism stands for. Consequently, they hate each other and still have wars.

I've also noticed that a lot of "religious" people--I count myself as a christian (though not a traditional one)--don't even understand their own religions. They will quote things that either their preacher/parents told them, but are not even contained in the writings of their religion. They also often ignore the contradictions in these "writings" or explain them away in some convoluted way.

I used to go to a Methodist church where the minister was upset that at that point a lesbian was being allowed to be an associate minister (I don't know what happened in the long-run). He sent out a letter that said, "Jesus said that homosexuality is wrong, so I believe the church made a mistake in allowing her to minister." WTF? Where exactly did JESUS say that? Paul and the Old Testament has prohibitions against homosexuality, but Jesus said NOTHING about it. Even my fundamentalist dad admits to that...I don't know how many "christians" say Jesus said something when it was Paul or the OT--I'm so sick of it!

As far as contradictions, I was talking to my dad about how I believe God wants us to be vegan and was never for mistreatment or consumption of animals. I pointed out that in Isaiah, the prophet Isaiah says that God was not pleased with animal sacrifice. My dad said that it was just a prophecy about not needing to commit sacrifice after Jesus' death. But he said it before Jesus' birth and said that God NEVER wanted it, not that soon it wouldn't be necessary.

I just hope that atheists realize that all people who believe in God are not fundamentalist extremists who think they shouldn't have the right to their opinions and further don't denegrate those of us who do believe in God for being "stupid" or "deluded." I have seen a few atheists really attack believers as being somehow less intelligent or reasonable than those who don't believe in God. I think either side being so judgemental and angry really doesn't help:no:

[Gliondrach]

There must be fewer American atheists as two of those authors are British. Not relevant but Hitchen's brother Peter is a Christian and was anti-Iraq war. He also often talks a lot of sense.

As for the belief that people who believe in God might be less intelligent, you only need to look at me. I am extremely intelligent. But I'm not a Christian-type of God-believer.

I didn't read all that Bush article but I wonder if he thinks that Moslem, Jewish and Hindu Americans shouldn't be citizens?

[Bowwowmeow]

I agree with you too dreamer. I spent a lot of my childhood studying the Bible and being taught by my Pa, who was very active in his church. Though now I find myself unable to believe in the existence of an intelligent creator, I feel that every serious work of religious philosophy has things of value to teach anyone, and musn't be judged on how its masses of imperfect practitioners apply it to their daily lives, and unfortunately, the lives of others. It makes no sense at all to judge Jesus, for example, on all the different kinds of people who invoke his name to suit their own selfish purposes. I often think he would be turning in his grave if he knew about all the horrible things people have done throughout history in his name. It makes me sad to think of it.

[1vegan]

I just hope that atheists realize that all people who believe in God are not fundamentalist extremists who think they shouldn't have the right to their opinions and further don't denegrate those of us who do believe in God for being "stupid" or "deluded." I have seen a few atheists really attack believers as being somehow less intelligent or reasonable than those who don't believe in God. I think either side being so judgemental and angry really doesn't help:no:


I don't know if that's a response to my post, but I was raised christian myself, and I do know there are lots of "normal" christians around :)

It's just the extremists that get the attention, and that "very vocal" group seems to get a lot done in the U.S.
A minority calls themself the moral majortity (sp) and have quite some influence as a whole.

With my limited knowledge of the U.S, I think that the "jerry falwells" of the U.S are so powerfull that a "runner for president" has no chance whatsoever if he or she would be positive towards abortion.

[Phoenix]

Without wishing to hijack the thread, yesterday I watched an (Australian made) documentary on evangelical Christians in the US, and they are scary people. :speechless:

I was raised to believe in the Creator - but not in a Christian sense - and the one thing that I found most confronting / confusing about the Christians that were interviewed, was their hatred. As a child, I was taught that "God" loved all of us! And I thought that Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said something about loving each other. Yet the Christians spoke passionately :grumble: (on camera) about their disgust for homosexuals, women who choose abortion, and basically anyone who is different to themselves.

But what really floored me was that someone was selling bumper stickers, and the two designs that stuck in my mind were:

I love animals.They are delicious.

I accelerate for animals.

Why pick on the animals??? :confused: Instead, why not sell bumper stickers that read:

I ****ing hate vegetarians / vegans / AR activists.

After all, the animals can't read the bumper stickers, so their sole purpose must be to upset human beings!

[Charmagne]

I've seen those I accelerate for animals stickers here in the land of the country bumpkin idiots! They work - they really do piss me off. Do they sell them that says "I accelerate for humans" or "I accelerate for omnis"? Better make it humans - inbreeders here probably do not know what an omni is. I don't use bumper stickers but really would use that one.

[Bowwowmeow]

How about . . .
I accelerate for rednecks?
I accelerate for hunters?
I accelerate for beerbellies?
I accelerate for meatards?
I accelerate for uddersuckers?

You'd probably get yourself killed for having something like them on your car though. :dark:

[Oracl]

How about . . .
I accelerate for rednecks?
I accelerate for hunters?
I accelerate for beerbellies?
I accelerate for meatards?
I accelerate for uddersuckers?

You'd probably get yourself killed for having something like them on your car though. :dark:

Unfortunately, yes, you probably would. :sigh:

[1vegan]

Without wishing to hijack the thread, yesterday I watched an (Australian made) documentary on evangelical Christians in the US, and they are scary people. :speechless:


You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America


I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:




Last Updated: Friday, 30 March 2007, 10:39 GMT 11:39 UK

E-mail this to a friend Printable version

The Most Hated Family in America

They call themselves the most hated family in the US and they picket funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. So what did Louis Theroux make of the Phelpses after three weeks?
In any country, let alone one as patriotic as the US, few actions are as provocative as protesting at a soldier's funeral.

The Phelps family pickets mourners across the country, to mark what it describes as God's revenge on the US for tolerating homosexuality.

Their actions are in the name of the Westboro Baptist Church, which numbers 71 and is headed by "Gramps", preacher Fred Phelps. The church, which is based in Topeka, Kansas, mostly comprises his extended family.

Louis Theroux, himself no stranger to people with unconventional views, says the Phelpses are the most extreme people he has ever met. But in the following interview, he reveals how three weeks with them left him perplexed by their motivation.

The Magazine: How well known are they in the US?

Louis Theroux: They're well known because of these pickets which they've been doing for at least 15 years now. The pickets weren't always of soldiers' funerals, but it got more extreme as it went on. Originally it started as pickets of places where gay people congregated - a local park becoming a cruising area which they objected to, and then when Aids came along they said it was punishment for homosexuality and they began picketing Gay Pride parades and marches and also then the funerals of people who died of Aids. And they didn't originally use offensive words like "fag". They would say "homosexuality", but then it just escalated.

You say that in America the media tries not to give them the coverage, but aren't you just giving them a voice over here?


Viewers will have to see the show and judge for themselves how these people come across. Certainly this group view it as a platform and that's why they agreed to do the show. But I think what we did was something more than that. What we did, I think, was try to understand how a group like this operates; its group psychology, the way the beliefs are passed down the family, and how those beliefs can be held by very urbane, intelligent, professional people. So when you cover a group like this, you take a gamble that you will be able to get under its skin and reveal something about it, and something about us all as people, and I think we managed to do that.

They don't separate their children from the real world either, do they?

They go to school; you can have normal conversations with these people. They're intelligent, high achieving, have good jobs, and they're kind, for the most part, when they're not on pickets. They're easy to communicate with and deal with too. It's just this one area - their pickets. They will even - so I'm given to understand and I have no reason to doubt it - work alongside gay people very happily in the work place. If a gay person goes along to talk to them outside the church or if a gay person even turned up to the church to attend a service, they wouldn't humiliate them or be rude to them; they'd shake their hand and welcome them in.

Do all the children follow this Church?

Gramps, the pastor, who's the head of the whole ministry, he's had about 13 children. But four fell away. You could say that for only four to fall away shows that you can escape from it but then you can also say how amazing that nine of them stayed in it. That there are 71 of them in total is a testament to how powerful an effect your upbringing has on you.

Are the ones who left, ostracised from the whole family now?

Yes. Once you leave, that's it, there's no going back and if you're still in the group you're not allowed to "fellowship" with an ex-member. That's a no-no.

They're relatively "normal" apart from this obsession with the pickets?


Louis: Yes. In some ways they're a model family. All these things that you associate with the breakdown of families, like the dad's gone to the pub all the time or they just watch TV and the parents don't talk to the kids, well you can't put that on this family. They spend all their recreational time together and they all look out for each other. They don't really have friends outside the church because all their best friends are in the church. It's important to recognise the good qualities of the family as it helps explain why so many of them have stayed in it and embraced the hateful stuff.

Were there any other aspects of the family that intrigued you?

Louis: I first saw the family through reading about them and on their website but now, having met them, the most incongruous thing about them is how they look. What I mean is, for example, many of the women are these nice-looking young ladies whose beliefs are so old-fashioned in some ways so you'd think they're kind of like the Amish or something and wear head dresses and long skirts and dirndls. Instead, they're all wearing shorts and T-shirts. They're all-American girls with long hair and good teeth and looking tanned and relaxed, playing volleyball and laughing and joking around and that is, for me, a totally new kind of experience. Dealing with these people with, like, Palaeolithic beliefs but hearing them coming from fresh-faced teenagers and women who you think you'd run into at the mall.

Isn't what they're doing just the ultimate in free speech and democracy?

Well yes, in the sense that they have a right to their beliefs. Although I don't think they have a right to invade someone's funeral, they have a right to hold their signs on street corners. I don't think they should be stopped from doing that. I still think it's a pretty weird thing to do and quite a horrible one.

What else do you tackle in the film?

What we're trying to do in the documentary is look at an activity that is so antisocial, so strange, so futile and at its worst, so cruel, and we're saying "Why? Why do that?", especially when you seem to be, for the most part, kind and sensitive people. We're exploring what is cruelty, trying to explain how something that really does very often just amount to cruelty could be perpetuated and passed down in a family. Why would nice people do such horrible things?

Do you think you've come to an answer?

Yes, I think we do. I think that the pastor is not a very nice person. I think he's an angry person who's twisted the Bible and picked and chosen verses that support his anger, that sort of justify his anger, and he's instilled that in his children and they've passed it on to their children. Although the second and third generation are by and large quite nice people from what I saw, they still live under the influence of their Gramps.


It shows you what strange avenues the religious impulse can take you down. I think another part of the answer is that parts of the Christian Bible are pretty weird. There's a lot of weird stuff in there and when you take that and you add this angry, domineering kind of a father figure, which is Gramps, and you add that he has sort of separated them off from other people, other families and driven them to achieve a lot, and he was kind of a charismatic guy, and still is up to a point. He was a very verbal, very persuasive, an extremely compelling speaker. All these things added together combined to make a powerful influence.

Louis Theroux: The Most Hated Family in America is on Sunday at 2100BST on BBC Two

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6507971.stm

[paul]

You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America


I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:

I saw the program a few weeks ago,i found it strange and disturbing.

[paul]

How about . . .
I accelerate for rednecks?
I accelerate for hunters?
I accelerate for beerbellies?
I accelerate for meatards?
I accelerate for uddersuckers?

You'd probably get yourself killed for having something like them on your car though. :dark:


Whats wrong with beer bellies.it took a lot of good real ales for mine and years of practice:D .

[Oracl]

You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America
I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:
I haven't seen that. :no: Very disturbing! :eek:

[1vegan]

I haven't seen that. :no: Very disturbing! :eek:

some pics here :stroppyblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/phelps-family.html

youtube
youtube.com/watch?v=2QRyr3_nCF4
(seems to be the bbc broadcast of it)

[Gliondrach]

You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America


I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:


I saw that telly programme. From what I remember of it the people were bigoted morons. One of the girls was very cheerful and friendly - to Theroux - and impossible to anger. But, like meat eaters, they could be selectively kind or compassionate. There are many meat eaters who are very nice and compassionate, who would go out of their way to help strangers, and who would be very agreeable companions. They just have this inability or lack of desire to behave like that to other animals or to animals that they see as food.

[Bowwowmeow]

Whats wrong with beer bellies.it took a lot of good real ales for mine and years of practice:D .
:whiteflag:
Yours is a vegan beerbelly, which is totally different. :shy: :psmooch:

[Oracl]

some pics here :

youtube

(seems to be the bbc broadcast of it)
Thanks, 1vegan. :covereyes: :dark:

[dreamer]

I was raised to believe in the Creator - but not in a Christian sense - and the one thing that I found most confronting / confusing about the Christians that were interviewed, was their hatred. As a child, I was taught that "God" loved all of us! And I thought that Jesus of Nazareth reportedly said something about loving each other. Yet the Christians spoke passionately :grumble: (on camera) about their disgust for homosexuals, women who choose abortion, and basically anyone who is different to themselves.
I agree, Phoenix. I have an aunt who is always sending me hate-filled emails...one was about how ALL Muslims are evil and should basically be deported or jailed just to be "safe." I emailed her back what I thought were the basic tennets of christianity which is largely what you have already intimated...that we should LOVE everyone--even our "enemies" (Jesus said) as we love ourselves! It's easy to "love" those who agree with you, but it's much harder to love people who want to kill you. Besides, I pointed out to her that it's ridiculous to consider all Muslims evil, as much as it is for those Muslim extremists to think that all christians are like Bush (and my aunt--who loves Bush--unfortunately)!

I've had quite a few students who get mad if I even suggest that all religious and non-religious ideas deserve respect and not hate. I've had some students tell me that anything not christian (and they don't consider Catholicism christian either!) is atheist...so if Bush follows that logic (and he probably does), he probably wouldn't think that Hindus, Buddhists, etc. should be citizens either--that's for Gliondrach;) In one of my classes I even mentioned a news story I saw about a man (here in the South) who had a vanity license plate that said "atheist." He said people were always trying to run him off the road and when he got out of his car at stores, often people tried to beat him up. He thought it was ridiculous, especially if they're trying to convince him not to be an atheist. About half the class said, "well, what did he expect? He deserves it!":hbang: I know I'm not supposed to judge (i.e., "Judge not lest ye be judged"), but that is far from the christianity that I embrace of being loving and compassionate. And what happened to his right to freedom on expression?

[Oracl]

About half the class said, "well, what did he expect? He deserves it!"
Wow, that's depressing! :(

[Phoenix]

How about . . .

I accelerate for hunters?


:thumbsup: I really appreciate that one! :agree: :D ;)

[Phoenix]

You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America


I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:
Thanks for that 1Vegan. :)

What a family! :blecch: I don't understand how anyone can describe them as being nice people "apart from" their picketing activities. :confused:

"You will eat your children." :confused:
"God is your enemy." :confused:
"Your pastor is a whore." :confused:

I honestly hope that when their time comes, they are not judged as harshly as they have judged others.

[Phoenix]

I agree, Phoenix. I have an aunt who is always sending me hate-filled emails...one was about how ALL Muslims are evil and should basically be deported or jailed just to be "safe." I emailed her back what I thought were the basic tennets of christianity which is largely what you have already intimated...that we should LOVE everyone--even our "enemies" (Jesus said) as we love ourselves! It's easy to "love" those who agree with you, but it's much harder to love people who want to kill you. Besides, I pointed out to her that it's ridiculous to consider all Muslims evil, as much as it is for those Muslim extremists to think that all christians are like Bush (and my aunt--who loves Bush--unfortunately)!
How did your aunt respond to your email, Dreamer? :rubchin:
I've had quite a few students who get mad if I even suggest that all religious and non-religious ideas deserve respect and not hate. I've had some students tell me that anything not christian (and they don't consider Catholicism christian either!) is atheist...so if Bush follows that logic (and he probably does), he probably wouldn't think that Hindus, Buddhists, etc. should be citizens either--that's for Gliondrach;) In one of my classes I even mentioned a news story I saw about a man (here in the South) who had a vanity license plate that said "atheist." He said people were always trying to run him off the road and when he got out of his car at stores, often people tried to beat him up. He thought it was ridiculous, especially if they're trying to convince him not to be an atheist. About half the class said, "well, what did he expect? He deserves it!":hbang: I know I'm not supposed to judge (i.e., "Judge not lest ye be judged"), but that is far from the christianity that I embrace of being loving and compassionate. And what happened to his right to freedom on expression?
First of all, why is it that so many people who consider themselves to be Christians don't understand the definition of the word? Or the word atheist apparently. :rolleyes: Many years ago, a close friend (at the time) asked me if I worship Satan :devil2: just because I told her I'm not a Christian. :hbang:

The man with the vanity plates must be very brave or a bit silly, but either way it's his business. Why don't people just live and let live?

[dreamer]

How did your aunt respond to your email, Dreamer? :rubchin:
She basically didn't...she just said, "sorry I upset you," but didn't really respond to my reasons for not liking her email. I have just started deleting all the emails she sends to me because they're always pro-Bush, fundamentalist closed-minded BS IMO.
First of all, why is it that so many people who consider themselves to be Christians don't understand the definition of the word? Or the word atheist apparently. :rolleyes: Many years ago, a close friend (at the time) asked me if I worship Satan :devil2: just because I told her I'm not a Christian. :hbang:
Yes, even though I consider myself a christian, I respect other people's beliefs. And unlike most christians I've talked to, I don't think you have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven...but then my beliefs are my own, not from any specific denomination. But I have met many people who say things similar to what your friend did. If you are atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim (especially Muslim!), etc, but NOT christian, you are going to hell--so you might as well be a Satanist:rolleyes:
The man with the vanity plates must be very brave or a bit silly, but either way it's his business. Why don't people just live and let live?
I don't know...it makes no sense to me. I personally think the christians who harassed that atheist--as well as my students who thought it was OK--give christianity a bad name!

[thevegantwins]

When I was a supervisor at my last job, a group home for developmentally disabled adults, the other staff used to tell me I was going to hell because I wasn't Christian. They'd leave bible stuff in my mailbox and really give me a hard time. 2 of these wonderful Christians were stealing from the clients. I'm not anti-Christian, I have a problem with anyone who spouts that they are the only true religion and if you don't believe in that particular religion, ______ this will happen to you.

[Gliondrach]

A rabbi and a Catholic priest were talking. The rabbi asked the priest if he would like to become a bishop one day. The priest said that he would. When asked if he'd like to become a cardinal, the priest again said that he would. He also answered that he would when asked if he'd like to become the Pope. But when asked if he'd like to become God, the priest said: 'Oh, no no. that would be impossible.' The rabbi responded by saying: 'But why not - one of our boys made it?'

[Oracl]

:lol:

[goodeone]

It is strange that although the title of this thread is Atheism it has gone the way of most threads so named and turned into using the most extremist type of christian as a justification for an attack on christian beliefs. This is no different than the meat eater who justifys his meat eating habit by claiming all vegans are human haters and members of the ALF. I am a christian have nothing against atheists God gave us the right to choose if we would choose to serve him or not. I respect atheists right not to want to believe they however are not allways as respectful back unlike some members of other religions:shakehead:.

[dreamer]

I'm sorry that it comes across that way, goodone. As I stated earlier, I consider myself a christian as well. I have met atheists who christian-bash and I didn't appreciate it either. I really haven't gotten that impression from the people here...I think we respect each other's beliefs (or lack thereof), even if we don't see "eye to eye" about God. And I have also met MANY christians who are very hateful toward atheists, even to the point of getting enraged by their lack of beliefs. It also seems (from everything I've read and heard on the TV news) that there are MANY so-called religious people--of many different faiths--who hate anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs. I say "so-called" because I don't think they're really following their own religion! Anyway, I think that the "extremist" christians are probably the minority, but they are the most vocal christians--just as the extremist Muslims are often the most vocal--so those people, unfortunately, are the ones that most people (especially atheists) know about and have had negative interactions with...as I mentioned earlier, I've even had some really negative interactions with such so-called christians. I think one of the best books that I've read about this subject is When Religion Turns Evil...the author discusses how to tell when a religious belief becomes corrupted and it applies to the "extremists" who've been discussed on this thread.

I consider myself a christian and in my heart believe that the main tennets of christianity (which the extremists totally ignore) are: love your neighbor and even enemy as yourself, turn the other cheek, judge not lest you be judged, and appreciate your blessings. [Of course, veganism is a tennet for me as well...after all, in Eden that's the diet given and the "peaceful kindgom" mentioned later on is obviously vegan as well.]

[Gliondrach]

Bigotry and extremism are part of human nature. If there was no religion, people would find a reason to hate others. Here in the UK some fans of football teams hate fans of other teams and it can spill over into violence - especially in Glasgow.

[Bowwowmeow]

No Christian bashing allowed here! I do want people to feel free to express themselves in a non-hurtful way, no matter what they think. I see lots of Christian bashing at other forums, against actual Christian vegan members of those forums, and I think it is ugly and hateful, and pointless, too.

[Gliondrach]

You've seen these?
The Most Hated Family in America

I've just seen that on a national tv station ..... :speechless:


There was another programme about them on telly a couple of months ago - again presented by Louis Theroux.

One of the daughters had left and was living on her own. She no longer believes what they do. She's the one who is a nurse.