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Fauxmage
05-11-2007, 11:59 AM
Or, leather stuff you had before you went vegan. Lots of people hate waste, and feel like they should keep using their leather stuff until it wears out. Other people claim that purchasing used leather goods is more environmentally friendly than purchasing non-leather versions of the same products.

I know that people have lots of reasons to become vegan. Many claim the health benefits of the diet are what convinced them, but of course this does not cover the use of animal-free non-food items. Leather is not bad for your health, unless of course you are an animal who gets killed for your skin! The motivation for these folks is "my health comes first. What is best for me?"

Others go vegan because they discover that it is the best way to help our environment. Environmentally oriented vegans believe that, since it harms the environment to cast leather items into the landfill, its better to wear them until they fall apart. The assumption here is that they are the only people who are able to make full use of the leather items they owned before they became vegan, that there are no alternatives except to throw them away, or use them until they wear out. But how about giving their old leather items to friends or family members who perhaps might have admired them? Giving your old leather things to your friends, and explaining why you want to give them away, might just plant a seed in their minds that will one day bear vegan fruit, and it will save you a lot of explanation when someone who believes you are vegan asks you why you use leather.

Some environmental vegans actually view leather as a meat industry by-product, and feel that the use of by-products is not unethical because they believe that since animals are slaughtered for the purpose of consuming their flesh, they are not creating an independent demand for other body parts like the skin and bones. They also like to claim that producing leather alternatives is wasteful and harmful to the environment, since they are made from synthetic materials and purchased new. These are probably valid viewpoints for people to whom the environment comes first because it is the only environment human beings can live in. The motivation seems to be "my environment comes first. What is best for my environment?"

But then there are the people who are vegan because we care about other animals too, not just human ones. We recognize that animals are not commodities or production materials. We get rid of the leather things we had before we went vegan as fast as we can because we can't stand what it symbolizes: pain, blood, and death. We do not purchase second hand leather either, even if it is more environmentally friendly, because we do not view animals as sources of clothing or upholstery, any more than we would have viewed the Jewish people as sources of lampshade material and soap, if we had lived during the Holocaust.

Trying to avoid "waste" is a noble goal. But when we think of giving up the leather stuff we had before we went vegan, and not wanting to because it is "wasteful", we are promoting the idea that animals, and the things people turn them into, are commodities. To me, veganism is about changing the way human animals think about non-human ones. We don't think of our dead relatives as commodities. We don't worry about how harmful to the environment it is to embalm them with toxic chemicals, how wasteful to bury them in huge cemeteries when that land could be put to better use growing food or providing space for people to live, or how much energy it takes to cremate them, and how the smoke from the cremation pollutes the air we breath.

Of course, if I were to suggest to a new vegan who is trying to justify their continued use of leather that there is an awful lot of perfectly useful animal skin to be found in any cemetery, or ask them why they didn't strip their dead relatives' bodies of all useful materials instead of just letting all those resources go to waste in the casket, I'd get labelled an animal rights fanatic. Its so much easier to call someone a name instead of think about the things they have to say, or answer the questions they ask.

But it isn't judging a person to ask them to contrast their attitudes about human and non-human animals. The ultimate goal in my own personal application of veganism in my life is the total abolition of animal exploitation. This is accomplished in part by no longer allowing animals to be viewed as commodities. As long as a person thinks of something that comes from an animal as something that is subjected to the idea of being either wasted or made good use of, they are promoting the idea of animals as resources, which cannot be considered a vegan way to think of animals.

After all, if a Jewish person managed to obtain a lampshade made from their grandmother's skin by some sick Nazi, would it be reasonable to expect them to use it until it wore out, give it to someone who didn't care who it was made of, or give it a decent burial? I'd like to hope that any human in possession of any such artifact would give it a decent burial, regardless of whether they knew and loved the human animal from whom it was manufactured. Since veganism revolves around compassion for animals, and compassion for animals necessitates that we avoid treating them in ways we would not like to be treated, I would like people to think about what it means when they view a piece of leather as a product, and not as the body part of someone who should not have been killed and flayed and turned into a shoe, or a belt, or a wallet, in the first place.

Can we best serve animals by thinking about them in terms of use and waste? Veganism isn't just about what we don't do to animals, its about how we need to think about animals, both while they are alive, and after they are dead.

1vegan
05-11-2007, 12:24 PM
They also like to claim that producing leather alternatives is wasteful and harmful to the environment, since they are made from synthetic materials and purchased new. These are probably valid viewpoints for people to whom the environment comes first becasue it is the only environment human beings can live in.

The production of leather is very unfriendly for the environment, and with nowadays production methods, producing can take loads of energy.
(for instance refrigerated transport of hides to asia)

A down side of leather free shoes can be their quality, or the circumstances they were made under.

Fauxmage
05-11-2007, 12:31 PM
True. That's another good point to use when discussing this with people who claim second-hand leather is more environmentally friendly (they are out there, they just don't post here ;) ).

Oracl
05-12-2007, 04:48 AM
Veganism isn't just about what we don't do to animals, its about how we need to think about animals, both while they are alive, and after they are dead.
This is very important. :agree: Great post Fauxmage! :thumbsup:

Bowwowmeow
05-12-2007, 01:03 PM
Thanks Oracl. :o I hope I got the idea across that I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty about what they do. I just want them to change the way they might be thinking about things, especially when we are living in a culture that's so completely saturated with assuming animals are just resources. Lots of people who call eggs "chicken periods", or cow milk "secretion", still think of leather shoes as "shoes", instead of as someone's skin. I'm just trying to do my part to change that kind of thinking, as gently as I can. :shy:

thevegantwins
05-12-2007, 03:44 PM
Lots of people who call eggs "chicken periods", or cow milk "secretion", still think of leather shoes as "shoes", instead of as someone's skin.
Better be careful, I was called 'mentally ill' for referring to aborted chicken fetuses and corpses. Calling shoes someone's skin might get you locked up, at least in this area of the country. :laugh:

Bowwowmeow
05-12-2007, 06:37 PM
:lol: :zip: I think I remember at least one occasion when that happened to you. ;)

paul
05-12-2007, 06:47 PM
Modern non leather shoes are more eco friendly than they were 10 years ago, they are expensive, thats the trouble, i still wouldn't buy second hand leather, i did buy a second hand pair of wool trousers the other day by accident(stupid of me because they still had the pure wool tag on them:dunce: ) :hbang:

Soynut
05-12-2007, 07:04 PM
Better be careful, I was called 'mentally ill' for referring to aborted chicken fetuses and corpses. Calling shoes someone's skin might get you locked up, at least in this area of the country. :laugh:

The other day I went with some people to a vegan eatery after an art show. They were omnis and nice enough to tag along. I "accidentally" refered to eggs as chicken period in a kind of humoristic way (have to try, you know), but I realized I had gone too far when no one was smiling and looked at me like I had said the most offensive insult imaginable. I thought it was a rather artistic way to put it....:dark:

Bowwowmeow
05-12-2007, 07:07 PM
i did buy a second hand pair of wool trousers the other day by accident(stupid of me because they still had the pure wool tag on them:dunce: ) :hbang: I had the worst scare when I wore my new raincoat outside in the rain. It started to smell just like silk when it got wet. I looked at all the tags again just to be sure, and its all 100% synthetic, but it sure does smell like silk when it gets wet! It would be stupid to make a raincoat out of silk, though, since it gets ruined in water. I still feel odd when it gets rained on. :dizzy:

Bowwowmeow
05-12-2007, 07:10 PM
I thought it was a rather artistic way to put it....:dark:
:rofl:

Soynut
05-12-2007, 07:20 PM
As strict as I am (or at least so they say) I have to admit to owning one pair of old leather shoes and I have no real justification for doing so. And I would never feel judged if a vegan would comment on the fact - they have all the right to do so in IMO. It's just wrong and I will give them away. Thanks for reminding me, Bow!:)

Why hold on to 1 pair anyway when I got rid of my leather jackets and bags long time ago? It's nonsensical.:crazy:

Soynut
05-12-2007, 08:13 PM
The production of leather is very unfriendly for the environment, and with nowadays production methods, producing can take loads of energy.
(for instance refrigerated transport of hides to asia)


So true. Omnis love to point out how unenvironmentally friendly cheap vegan shoes are.... Well, are expensive leather shoes any better? Nop, of course not.

Gliondrach
05-13-2007, 05:08 AM
We have to be careul here with our use of body parts. What about mummies and bones in museums? Or Pete Marsh and Tolund Man - preserved Iron Age or Bronze Age bodies found in peat bogs? And Oesti - the bloke found in the Alps. I think it is proper to return the skulls of Aussie Aborigines that are in museums, because their people want to give them the treatment that is fitting for ancestors. But for others, if there is no one who has any emotional attachment to body bits, they could stay in museums. They can tell us things about how people lived and what their health was like.

And I refuse to give up my collection of shrunken heads.

And what about the keeping of horses? They can't be allowed to run wild. People would rustle them, or they would be in danger from motor traffic. They need exercise away from confinement in fields. As long as there are horses and as long as they are in danger, the only safe way that I can think of to give them the chance to run for miles is to ride them. But not in races. So I see no harm in riding horses as long as they are well treated. Or perhaps people could ride bikes as they take the horses for walks on the end of a long piece of rope. All the time praying that the horse doesn't decide to jump over a fence.

I've never ridden a horse and have no desire to do so. In an ideal world horses would run wild in places like the New Forest and Exmoor. Along with wild cattle, sheep and boars.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

thevegantwins
05-13-2007, 06:46 AM
There are enough people who would be willing to place the horses into sanctuarys where there is plenty of land for them to run naturally. There is absolutely no need for horses to be ridden and I grew up riding horses and loved it as a child. If they enjoyed having humans ride them, they wouldn't have to be broken in order to tame the wildness out of them and there wouldn't be special paraphenalia to control them to do what humans what them to do.

Gliondrach
05-13-2007, 10:01 AM
But what about the ones who have been ridden and who can't get into a sanctuary?

thevegantwins
05-14-2007, 07:55 AM
That still doesn't justify horseback riding. There are always going to be exceptions but cruelty/exploitation can't be justified.

Gliondrach
05-14-2007, 09:04 AM
They won't let you join the Household Cavalry, then.

thevegantwins
05-14-2007, 10:19 AM
I'd turn them down anyway :nahnah:

VeganD
05-16-2007, 05:14 PM
Good post Fauxmage

I still have leather and don’t like to admit it but once I get rid of it I will not be replacing it with leather again it will be replaced with faux

I just don’t see how getting rid of it now is going to help the innocent cows that had to die for it

All i know is when it comes to replacing it i will be doing it with an alternative

Fauxmage
05-16-2007, 10:42 PM
Thanks jo!
I know it can be a problem for some folks to afford to replace things when they are newly vegan. I think as long as they are not in denial about who their shoes and purses are made of, their hearts are in the right place. :)

paul
05-17-2007, 12:36 AM
Eek i've just remembered i've got a pair of walking boots made of leather:sigh: :o :( :sorry: