Why Honey Isn't Vegan

[Fauxmage]

Here's a good site for understanding why vegans don't use honey. (http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm)

[Rainbow]

Or the quick version to why don't we vegans eat honey...because it would be stealing and naturally vegans don't rob off cute little honey bees!

[BonaDrag]

Here's hoping one day the bees will get their revenge on those who do steal!:crossfingers: :devil4:

[Fauxmage]

Ah what cute bees! :bee:

[Bowwowmeow]

Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in battery cages so small they can’t spread their wings. It hurts mother pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they can’t turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts our movement.

It’s happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why I’m vegan—it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism. I’m either going to open that window for that person, breezing in fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom they’ve shared their lives. Of birds with a half piece of paper’s worth of space in which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out, they learn that we don’t eat honey. And you can see the conflict drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they understand what this whole “vegan” thing is all about. You’re not vegan because you’re trying to be kind or compassionate—you’re just crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second, they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal cruelty, and then the thought hits them that you’re standing up for insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

I’m afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasn’t strictly organically grown—after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best. And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit “natural”). Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot of soil—that’s over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square mile. Even “veganically” grown produce involves the deaths of countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the product’s production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesn’t make any sense, and I think the general population knows this on an intuitive level. Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if we’re actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect. We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Let’s just not make a huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About America’s Low-Carb Craze (Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreach’s Vegan Starter Pack Q&A at www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html (http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html).
Thoughts anyone???

[snaffler]

From a vegan stance..its theft of an animals product and hard work, no different to milk theft from a cow (well more blood money involved in milk) but all the same, similar reasons, from a dietry view...they puke it back up to produce it think :no:

[Delicious]

"Our position on honey therefore just doesn’t make any sense, and I think the general population knows this on an intuitive level. Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if we’re actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect. We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty dogmatic self-flagellation."

When I first came across this it caused me to lose a lot of respect for Dr. Greger. He is playing in to the condescending attitude so many have towards vegans.

First of all, I don't trust the general public to know ANYTHING 'intuitively', because they rarely do.

Secondly, the whole mocking attitude he has about vegans having a "personal purity" issue is disappointing. I really HATE that :mad: (and I don't like using that word at all, but I decided nothing else fit just right..I HATE it!) and the use of the word "obsessing", well, hell, it ALL looks like obsessing to those who have scornful, contemptuous attitudes towards us as vegans, doesn't it? What is it they often say? "It's ONLY food!!!" :rolleyes: And where he says: "petty dogmatic self-flagellation"??? Wow. Could you be any more angry towards vegans? He sounds like an omni attacking a vegan, not a vegan doctor who supports our movement at all. :( For the record, I am not petty and I do NOT self-flaggelate, thanks! Way to minimise our efforts to avoid ALL animal suffering!!! :(

[Bowwowmeow]

I feel the same way as you, Delicious. Those who do have scornful attitudes toward vegans do because there is something wrong with them, not us. There are hundreds of religions out there, for example, and though I do not share the beliefs of their followers I don't have scorn and ridicule for any of them. Personal purity is important to me, and it is independent of my veganism. I don't like to be told that my sense of integrity, that applies to all aspects of who I am, not just the vegan ones, is turning away potential vegans. Anyone who is looking for an excuse not to be vegan isn't going to become vegan!!! When I was little I couldn't wait until I was old enough to defy my parents and stop eating dead animals. Pretty much 180 degrees from those who look for excuses like avoiding honey to keep from going vegan. And honey is easy to give up. Way easier than giving up all those convenience foods full of milk by-products. Why don't they focus on that instead of honey if they want us to look radical? :hbang:

[thevegantwins]

I agree with everyone above! Honey is from an animal, vegans don't eat animal products so why is this even an issue. This is like the "If I had rescued hens and ate their eggs, I'd still be vegan" crap that some people like to spout. Let the bees have their honey and I'll stick with my agave nectar and brown rice syrup.

[dreamer]

I really dislike Vegan Outreach altogether. When I first started trying to move toward veganism, that's one group's site I read. However, as I started doing more intensive research, I came to learn that they are basically trying to "reframe" veganism altogether. Yes, they are OK with you eating honey. They also have links to sites that say it is OK to eat fish/seafood because "they don't feel pain like mammals and birds do." And from the article you cite, it seems obvious that someone--maybe the doctor himself--would describe their veganism and stress the avoidance of honey. I personally have not had anyone who didn't know me ask if I ate honey and I have to admit that's not one of the main things I say about veganism. I usually say that I do not eat meat, dairy, or eggs and that it is about ethics (animal mistreatment) and health (our bodies function better). I have had it come up on occasion, but mainly with my family as they'd ask what to avoid when looking for food when I come to visit. As far as his argument that more insects are killed in the production of plant agriculture well...SO? Since we can't avoid insect deaths in one area, does that mean we should support it in another area--one that we CAN easily avoid?

I was really tempted to email Vegan Outreach a few times about my annoyance, but I really get the feeling it wouldn't do any good:grumble: Maybe we should encourage people on every vegan site we can find to write them emails and enlighten them on how we feel:flame:

[Peas'nHominy]

I agree.

I was not raised vegan, so I have had honey before, and I can say that I just can't taste the difference between honey and agave nectar. I mean, why even go there when there's agave nectar?? It's just so easy.

I mean, yeah it's hard to give up cheese. Cheese was the last thing I got out of my diet during my process of becoming vegan. It's addictive and I couldn't (still can't) find something like it. So here's this nonsense about honey?? Ah, please. That's just lame.

And I don't get the attitude from a "fellow vegan," but I can't say I see him as a vegan if he's saying it's okay to steal from the bees and eat their vomit (I know it's probably not really "vomit" but it might as well be, considering how the bees make it and all) :blecch:

[veggiesosage]

I've been thinking about this and I can see what he's saying. A few times I've seen in the media '...vegans even avoid eating honey as it harms the bees' in a kind of 'spot the weirdo' tone. I've also had the experience of friends' incredulity on this aspect of veganism.

But what to do? Veganism is about avoiding exploitation of and cruelty to animals as far as is practical and possible and as is pointed out above, its very easy to stop using honey. Its often used as a sweetener in other things like muesli bars though and its not always so easy to avoid it in those.

I have to admit I've had the odd period wavering about honey and have bought things with it in. When I was in New Zealand I was tempted with the manuka honey thats very big out there as a kind of cure all, although I didn't eat it in the end.

My thinking was that there are so many areas where insects (or other animals) are harmed in our daily lives. While it may not be possible to avoid killing insects in the farming of grain, say, what about all the bugs that get slattered on the front of our cars, buses and trains, are all those journeys so necessary that they come within the 'as far as practical and possible' rule? Probably not for all of us. I'm also wary of being ruled by a definition for its own sake, I'd rather enter into the spirit of things than just stick to the rules without thinking.

I am back to avoiding honey completely and what convinced me of this is simply that 'farming' honey is a process initiated by humans so we don't have to do it. We can therefore easily avoid the cruelty it causes. Just because I'm not so good at avoiding the cruelty in other areas of my life doesn't mean I can't do this.

However, I wouldn't dispute the 'veganness' of others who still use honey for the reasons I've cited above. If we are going to rail against others for acting as if 'insects don't matter' then we have to ensure our own house is in order before criticizing others.